The FReeper Foxhole's TreadHead Tuesday - The U.S. Tank Destroyer Forces - Feb. 10th, 2004

www.818tdbn.org ^

[SAMWolf]

Thanks Johnny.

The Spitfire took all the glory in the Battle of Britain but it was the Hawker Hurricane that was the backbone of the RAF at that time.

F/Sgt Antoni Glowacki and P/O Stefan Witorzenc of 501 Sqn - two of many Polish Battle of Britain aces

A Hurricane of 303 Sqn being patched up after battle

Polish Airmen memorial at Notholt, which served as Polish fighter base throughout the war

[SAMWolf]

I had the Monogram version of the MK.IID.

[carton253]

I am now ranting about the assumptions that two different authors drew...(I did some reading this weekend)

First, George Walsh in his book "Damage Them All You Can" accuses George Pickett of being a coward during Pickett's charge. No proof is given. No back up to this charge. He just lets the accusation hang there on the page...

George Pickett may have been a perfumed dandy... He may not have been the sharpest knife in the drawer, but George Pickett was no coward. No, sir... not at all.

The 2nd rant has to do with what I read last night in Stephen Sears book, "Gettysburg." Sears has the audacity to defend Ewell's decision not to take Culp's Hill on the afternoon of the first day of battle by stating (hold on to your hat)... "Not even the great Stonewall Jackson would have thought to do so."

I kid you not... Stonewall would have never instigated the battle in the first place because he would have gotten his troops to Harrisburg faster than Ewell... He would have never allowed Stuart to try to ride around Hooker (which Lee gave Stuart permission to do) and he certainly wouldn't have let Harry Heth go looking for shoes, especially after one of his generals told him that there was dismounted Calvary in Gettysburg.

Furthermore... Jackson wouldn't have quit chasing the Yankees once he broke them. No, sir... not Old Jack.

Sears' assumption shows that he doesn't understand the characters of the men he writes about.

Rant off... I feel better.

[SAMWolf]

I've never read anything accusing Pickett of cowardice. Seems like if George Walsh would level that charge he should at least offer some proof.

As for Culps Hill, Major General Isaac R. Trimble's narrative indicates he urged the taking of Culp's Hill.

As nothing in Gen'l Ewell's department indicated a design to advance against the enemy, Gen'l Trimble remembering Gen'l Lee's impressive words a few days before to "crush the advance of the enemy and attack him vigorously in detail", or words t to that effect, he approached Gen'l Ewell and said, "General don't you intend t to pursue our sweep and push the enemy vigorously?" His reply as "No, I have orders form Gen' Lee not to bring on a general engagement." to which Gen'l Trimble rejoined, "But Gen'l that order cannot have reference to the present situation, for we have had a general engagement and gained a great victory, and by all military rules we ought to follow up our success, and we are losing golden moments," to which appeal there was no reply. Gen'l Ewell turned and walked slowly about, his whole manner indicating [ir]resolution and that kind of impatience which springs from mutual indecision, or a feeling that three was a momentous crisis, and he did not see clearly what course t to take. His manner separated him from his staff and the approach of others.

NOTE: (Gen' Lee had issued orders to Gen'l Ewell about June 26th when directed him to march into Penn. "not to bring on a general engagement with the Federal army, with his corps.")

Deeply regretting the indecision of Gen'l Ewell, Gen'l Trimble left him, and rode around the outskirts of the city on the northern and north eastern side to learn the topography of the security. ..... Returning in half an hour he spoke t Gen'l Ewell and said, "Gen'l if you have decided not to advance against the enemy and we are only to hold our ground, I want to advise that you send a brigade with artillery to take possession of that hill (Culp's Hill). It commands Gettysburg and Cemetery Hill." "How do you know that?" said he. "I have been round there," was the reply, "and you know I am not often mistaken in judging of topography, and if we don't hold that hill, the enemy will certainly occupy it, as it is the key to the whole position about here and I beg you to send a force at once to secure it. "When I need advice from a junior officer, I generally ask it, " was Gen'l Ewell's ungracious reply. when Gen'l Trimble terminated the interview by saying, "Gen'l Ewell I am sorry you don't appreciate my suggestions, you will regret it as long as you live."

(Footnote 166: The following is from the original letter.) [as continued on page 932]

Gettysburg When the contest was ended, the first day, about 3:30; I and others urged Gen. Ewell to pursue our success and attack the enemy. This he did not do, on the plea that his troops were not in a condition to do so. Now Rhodes' division, which was the only one that began the fight on our left, had not been seriously injured and was in the finest spirits at the end of the fight. Early's div. came into action late in the contest on our extreme left, and was hardly injured at all; Johnson's division was but a few miles off, and came up about sundown.

Then, on the maxim of war, that "a routed enemy should be pursued, it seemed plain, that Ewell should have pressed forward, informing Gen. Lee and Gen Hill that he intended to pursue the enemy, and send express to Johnson to hasten forward, and follow him.

Whether successful or not; that, was the game play and Ewell ought to have taken the responsibility.

Finding he did not intend to do so, I strongly advised the occupation of Culps Hill at once. This was about half past 3 o'clock, not later than 4 o'clock I am sure. I said to him "that is the key of the position on Cemetery Hill." He answered, "How do you know," I said "I have been round, to north of the town and can see plainly that it commands Cemetery hill - and ought to be occupied by us, or the enemy as soon as possible" - General Ewell did not take any steps to occupy the hill, at once, and on after reflection decided not to attempt it. I think from reports of Federal Officers, Culp Hill was not occupied by any force of Meade's until about 5 to 5:30 P.M.

[4CJ]

George Pickett may have been a perfumed dandy... He may not have been the sharpest knife in the drawer, but George Pickett was no coward. No, sir... not at all.

I agree, as did his wife. I ran across something from her years ago about Pickett's Charge to that effect.

Furthermore... Jackson wouldn't have quit chasing the Yankees once he broke them. No, sir... not Old Jack.

His men loved him for a reason, and he got the job done. IMHO, 'Stonewall' was the finest soldier to ever live.

[carton253]

Sandie Pendleton was at that meeting and came out of the house and told Powers Smith and the other aides... "Oh for the spirit of Old Jack for only an hour."

He knew that Jackson would have taken the hill... and possibly more.

I think Walsh should have offered some proof too. But, when you listen to the commentary of the movie "Gettysburg", the commentators address it. They say that Pickett was accused of cowardice in the charge... but they go on to say that in truth, when Pickett was thrown from his horse (artillery struck near by), he was very far forward. Probably too far forward for a Major General.

[snippy_about_it]

Good morning CJ.

[snippy_about_it]

Mornin' Valin.

[snippy_about_it]

One of the reasons the US tanks were initially undergunned, was that they were not expected to fight other tanks, that was the tank destroyers job.

Now that's starting to put the entire picture together for me. Thanks.

[carton253]

Well...you know how I feel about Stonewall... I believe he was the greatest general to have lived... and a great man.

I should receive (hopefully today) Henry Kydd Douglass' book "I Rode With Stonewall." Critics say that it is a fine book about Jackson at war.

Have you read "Lost Victories - The Military Genius of Stonewall Jackson." It is a great book. I highly recommend it.

[snippy_about_it]

LOL. Well I guess I could say you came through here like a tank. ;-)

We're glad you feel better now.

[gatorbait]

The Tank Destroyer concept was Lesley McNair's baby.A life long cannon cocker, he believed that the mobile defense these things offered would stem Blitzkrieg. It appears to have be used IAW doctrine once, El Guettar.

There was another TD, the M 6, a 37mm gun mounted on the back of a 3/4 t Dodge Wc51/52 truck. Towed TDs could be effective , but often as not, become targets themselves. The TD concept was defensive in nature, and inappropriate for an Army that prized offense doctrinaly and in practice

[4CJ]

Now that's starting to put the entire picture together for me. Thanks. [One of the reasons the US tanks were initially undergunned, was that they were not expected to fight other tanks, that was the tank destroyers job. ]

Me too. I learned something ;o)

[carton253]

Yes...

But I knew if I unburdened myself around people who understood why I would get fired up over something that happened 140 years ago... It would be alright...

:)

[SAMWolf]

There was another TD, the M 6, a 37mm gun mounted on the back of a 3/4 t Dodge Wc51/52 truck.

OH YEAH! I had a model kit of that one.

The M6 GMC, a Dodge weapons carrier armed with the 37mm M6 anti-tank gun, proved quite inadequate when used in combat in N.Africa.

[4CJ]

Well...you know how I feel about Stonewall... I believe he was the greatest general to have lived... and a great man.

Bump on all accounts.

Have you read "Lost Victories - The Military Genius of Stonewall Jackson." It is a great book. I highly recommend it.

Thanks for the recommendation. Noted.

[gatorbait]

You know ,the 2d Armored remounted the 37 mm in M 2 halftracks and used them against people. though at least two kills were recorded in Normandy against MkIVs .. the Dodges went back to trash hauling..A sidenote, the Marines used the M 6 on Saipan and Tinian I do believe.

The model still gets re released periodically. There's a French company called CGM putting out the best 37mm I've ever seen in scale, by the way.

[Darksheare]

Neat stuff.
Sounds somewhat like the geeking that artillery is getting now, except that artillery is still useful as a weapon for many situations.

[Jen]

Ping - to the Foxhole. If you enjoy this daily thread, just ask SAMWolf or Snippy_about_it to add you to the ping list so you can easily find each new thread.

[SAMWolf]

I don't remember the company that put out the model, it was an offbeat company and it did depict the Marine version. I had the Monogram model of the Jeep with the towed 37mm.