REQUIEM MASS FOR THE PONTIFICAL SOLDIERS WHO DIED IN THE DEFENSE OF ROME

The Foundation for Catholic Reform ^ | September 20, 2003 | Fr. Ignacio Barreiro

[Guelph4ever]

You're trying to pick a fight where there isn't one, and putting words in my mouth.

Pope Innocent III was not a dictator who could force everyone to do as he pleased, but it was during his reign that virtually every Christian leader recognized their authority as coming from the Church and Vicar of Christ.

"Wasn't the period AD 400-650 a lot better
for Christians in Africa, Egypt, Syria,
Persia, Spain, etc. than post Islam in the Middle Ages?
Or does the only part of Christendom that counts
consist fo France, Italy, and Germany?"

When did I ever say anything relating to that? Of course it is better to be under Christian than Muslim rule, but that has nothing to do with Christendom, they were a conquered people. -I don't see the connection.

"Why do you insist on seeing the Most Christian
Emperors as all-powerful tyrants and dictators?"

Show me where I ever said anything of the kind! I insist on nothing of the sort! I am an old-fashioned Catholic monarchist and would support a Christian emperor any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I simply do not hold *any* temporal ruler to be above the authority of the Pope.

"Rome was the source of law, order, and freedom,
not the German barbarians."

True enough, but that sounds a little elitist. The Germans adopted Roman culture and were capable of becoming just as refined and civilized over time as anyone.

"Rome had a system of free cities and provincial rule in a united land at peace long before the medieval royals figured out how to mimic this system and curb the depredations of their nobles."

By the time Rome became Christian it was not very well united at all. The Church tried to restore this system as soon as it was able, but the very fact that Rome collapsed meant that it had to take some time before any relative peace could be reestablished.

I simply prefer the de-centralized system of the Holy Roman Empire, wherein the Emperor had authority over defense and foreign relations, leaving other matters up to the local authorities and where the Church was recognized as being paramount in all matters, temporal and spiritual. The Roman and Byzantine rulers, as much as I admire many of them, simply had a little too much arbitrary power for me to be 100% comfortable with.

[St.Chuck]

Out of curiosity, how many Catholic Monarchists do we have on this site?

2 and one flat earth society member.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Pope Innocent III was not a dictator who could force everyone to do as he pleased, but it was during his reign that virtually every Christian leader recognized their authority as coming from the Church and Vicar of Christ.

An absolutely bizzarre theory too. Authority comes from God. Romans 13, St. John 19, etc.

Show me where I ever said anything of the kind! I insist on nothing of the sort! I am an old-fashioned Catholic monarchist and would support a Christian emperor any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I simply do not hold *any* temporal ruler to be above the authority of the Pope.

Neither did the Most Christian Emperors. See the Code of Justinian.

True enough, but that sounds a little elitist. The Germans adopted Roman culture and were capable of becoming just as refined and civilized over time as anyone.

Yes, over time, provided they did not pervert the culture in the interim. The later affinity of my Anglo-Tuetono-Scandanavian brethren for Protestantism suggests this did not happen in the main.

By the time Rome became Christian it was not very well united at all. The Church tried to restore this system as soon as it was able, but the very fact that Rome collapsed meant that it had to take some time before any relative peace could be reestablished.

Not very well united? Romans remained united for centuries after the German conquest. The Franks were dealing with Roman revolts in the 8th century.

So there is not doubt about the identity of the revolutionaries in Gaul, we quote a contemporary Frankish chronicler who reports that in 742, the year of Charlemagne's birth, the Gascons rose in revolt under the leadership of Chunoald, the duke of Aquitaine and son of Eudo, mentioned above. Charlemagne's father and uncle "united their forces and crossed the Loire at the city of Orleans. Overwhelming the Romans, they made for Bourges." [10 Fredegarii, Chronica Continuationes 25.] Since Chunoald is here described as a beaten Roman, this means that his father Eudo was also a Roman, and not a Frank, as claimed by some. (FRANKS, ROMANS, FEUDALISM, AND DOCTRINE, Fr. John Romanides)

The Romans had no doubt who their rulers were (Emperor and Pope), and who they were not (the Franks).

And if unity was important, that is certainly something Europe lacked until Napoleon.

I simply prefer the de-centralized system of the Holy Roman Empire, wherein the Emperor had authority over defense and foreign relations, leaving other matters up to the local authorities and where the Church was recognized as being paramount in all matters, temporal and spiritual. The Roman and Byzantine rulers, as much as I admire many of them, simply had a little too much arbitrary power for me to be 100% comfortable with.

There is no such thing as a Byzantine Emperor or Empire. Its a figment of your imagination. The last Roman Emperor and the Roman Empire itself died on the field of battle in 1453 against the Turks at Constantinople New Rome.

[Guelph4ever]

okay: you win everything

happy?

sheeesh

[royalcello]

2 and one flat earth society member.

Haha. But how do you come up with only 2? I realize I don't count since I'm not Catholic. But the five other FReepers listed above have all identified themselves as Catholic monarchists. Too bad "Zviadist" got banned, or we'd have six. There are probably others as well I've momentarily forgotten.

[NeoCaveman]

Pope Innocent III action figures available here.

Pope Innocent III Action Figure

Introduce this Pope Innocent III Action Figure to your other figures and watch the spiritual sparks fly! Armed with his formidable power of excommunication and an intimidating scroll inscribed with Latin text, this 6" tall, hard plastic model of the 176th Pope will soon have all your other action figures lining up for confession. Read the back of the illustrated blistercard and you'll find that Pope Innocent III was a good guy in all respects. He was a patron of the arts, cared about orphans, built a hospital and reunified the Papal States! Comes with removable fancy Pope hat.

I thought it was cool.

[Guelph4ever]

:-D Wow, that has to be the coolest toy I have ever seen! Thanks alot, I'll absolutely have to get one of those.

"Christ has left to Peter the government, not only of the Church, but of the whole world."
--that ought to hack plenty of people off. ;-)

[MWS]

Gosh, the way you put it, you make it sound as if being a Flat Earth Society member is a BAD thing... :-\

[Guelph4ever]

Let me say up front that I am a convert to the Roman Catholic Church, however, my Grandfather is a big-time Protestant fundamentalist who believes very much in taking every little bit of the Bible absolutely at face value. He never joined any club, but he still believes the world is flat and that the sun revolves around the earth (all because Joshua ordered the sun rather than the earth to stand still). However, he believes the world is circular, whereas his mother, my late great-grandma, believed the earth was flat and square because of the verses which talk about the earth having four corners.

Of course, Grandpa also thinks the moon landing was a propaganda film staged by the US government. As far as he's concerned mankind never has and never will go to space (how he explains his satellite tv I don't know).

I don't see eye-to-eye with Gramps on these issues, but, what can I say? He's the Pater Familias after all...

Oh, and let it be known: I have already ordered my Pope Innocent III action figure. Too cool ;-)

[MWS]

I too am a convert from a predominantly Protestant family (although the members of my family aren't particularly well read in Scripture, which makes for some interesting discussions on occasion), so I know exactly how that can be.

Oh, and let it be known: I have already ordered my Pope Innocent III action figure. Too cool ;-)

Oh yeah? That's interesting. I actually have the Pope Alexander VI action figure. It was on discount because Ceasar and Lucrezia Borgia were included for free... (they gotta pay you to take those two!)

[Blessed Charlemagne]

Just bumping this thread. By the way, add one more monarchist (and traditionalist) to the count.