Darn close. Actually baptism, for us, is to confer membership in the church, not to "wash away" anything. Baptism is not a magical act which can eliminate any kind of "original sin". It is a sacrament which unites us to the church, and symbolizes a rebirth in Christ.
There is no guilt inherited or "stain" of original sin in the Orthodox church. These are the remnants of Augustine again...it is, imo, the work of the evil one to distort our coming knowledge of God's love for us, to make us think that we are some corrupt, depraved beings. When you take away that divine love, you can help people to stay away from Christ, again, imo. You (all) can argue with me about this, but before you do recall that "God is love", and "the greatest of these is love".
Of course we are sinful and none of us can resist sin, but in coming to Christ, we can experience God personally - especially God's love for us. There is nothing more sweet and reassuring than this experience, which I have found in the Orthodox church - along with the knowledge of my incredible lowliness before God's majesty.
This is Pelagianism. The Canons of 16th Council of Carthage, accepted in the East at the Council in Trullo (Quinisext), quite clearly teach against this.
"Canon 3. Likewise it has been decided that whoever says that infants fresh from their mothers’ wombs ought not to be baptized, or say that they are indeed baptized unto the remission of sins, but that they draw nothing of the original sin of Adam, which is expiated in the bath of regeneration, whence it follows that in regard to them the form of baptism `unto the remission of sins' is understood as not true, but as false, let him be anathema. Since what the Apostle says, ‘Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so passed to all men, in whom all have sinned’ [Rom. 5:12], must not be understood otherwise than the Catholic Church spread everywhere has always understood it. For on account of this rule of faith even infants, who in themselves thus far have not been able to commit any sin, are therefore truly baptized unto the remission of sins, so that that which they have contracted from generation may be cleansed in them by regeneration."
Baptism is not "symbolic". It imparts a real holiness, even in infants, where there was none before.
it is, imo, the work of the evil one to distort our coming knowledge of God's love for us, to make us think that we are some corrupt, depraved beings. When you take away that divine love, you can help people to stay away from Christ, again, imo.
The way you talk makes it sound as though all men already have faith and grace at birth, and the Church merely reveals this inner knowledge to us.
We do not preach that we are depraved and corrupt, but rather wounded and seperated from the life of God.
Of course we are sinful and none of us can resist sin
Sin can be resisted with grace.
Hermann, it sounds to me like you do have a doctrine of original sin, in spite of your words above.
I never said we do not. But we do not hold to St. Augustine's total understanding of original sin. In your quote from our Catechism:
"And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act."
But much more importantly is the next paragraph:
"405. Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle."
But again, quite simply - do you believe infants come into this world with grace or without grace?
Thus imparting to the recipient a triumph over death. And a triumph over death is a triumph over sin.
The Catholic church does not teach that Original Sin is guilt in any juridical sense. The reality of Original Sin is rooted in the reality of death. If you don't care for the formulation that every new-born receives a sentence of death from his parents, then at least admit that they do NOT receive eternal life, for the plain reason that no one, including parents, can give what he doesn't own. No, baptism is not a magical "washing away". But neither is it merely an initiation ceremony. Baptism creates a permanent ontological reality -- a fact that Orthodox surely accept, given that they receive pennance and the Eucharist repeatedly (also sacraments of communion), but baptism only once.
Are you saying that we don't receive the full forgiveness of all sin through baptism?
This sounds like Pelagianism to me? Why would there be a need for a SAVIOR if this were the case? Do you believe that children are born into this world with God's grace in their souls? What is the necessity to be "born again of water and spirit"?