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To: Front 242
I've done very little research on the stigmata, and please excuse me if someone has already explained this: Jesus more than likely had the nails placed through his wrists, just like in the shroud. The reason is because that putting the nails through the hand will not support the upper body for any period of time. The flesh will tear and the body will fall. However, if the nails are put between the two arm bones at the wrist, the flesh will not tear and the body will stay in place. Sorry for the gross explanation, but this was apparently the "correct" way to crucify someone. The Romans had plenty of experience to do it the right way.

My point: to me it seems odd that similar "Christ" wounds would be in a place that Jesus more than likely did not have them. I am not saying that it is fake. I am saying that it seems odd that the wounds would be contarry to the truth as we know it to be.

To further elaborate that crucifictions happened that way; this is from the Quran (used simply as a way to show how some forms of crucifiction were done):
"Be sure I will cut off your hands and your feet on apposite sides, and I will cause you all to die on the cross."[Qur'ân 7:124]
This quite simply says that after their hands are cut off they will be hung on the cross. You can't put nails through hands that aren't there!

Also, here is a link to a very graphic explanation of what Jesus probably suffered. It covers the crucifixtion method of the Romans in more detail than you may want to know.
http://www.harpazo.net/crucify.html

Sorry, I may be a tad off subject, but wanted to lend some insight into the actual crucifiction method...as it is historically presented.

74 posted on 08/27/2003 4:45:27 PM PDT by milan
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To: milan
Milan,

Thanks for the link regarding the Crucifixion. I sincerely appreciate it. I agree with you as well on the placement of the nails. It would seem feasible for the Romans to place the nails directly inbetween the small metacarpal bones of the wrists in order to suspend someone from the crossbeam portion of a crucifix. The small bones, ligaments, and bundle of muscles/veins would be more apt to support the heavy stress placed on them by a body suspended upright with its arms outstretched. The metacarpal bones would almost act as a tiny grouping of shims in which to prevent the nail being torn through the wrists.

However, to place the nails in the center of the palms would allow for the nails to possibly be pulled through to the webbed spaces between the fingers. (Sorry about the ghastly description folks ... just goes to show you the incredible suffering that Jesus undertook on our behalf ... something that not many people reflect on these days). The incredible physiological stress placed on the wrists or hands at the point of impalement with the nails would be very high. Imagine someone in the throes of death convulsing and trying to maintain an upright posture in which to breath and you can see why the Romans (who knew a thing or two about anatomy with all the wars, torture, and killings they committed and thus were able to examine firsthand the effects of trauma placed on the body), would place the nails through the wrists.

The one thing that lends credence though to the nail placement through the palms scenario, was just revealed to me after viewing some preview photos of Mel Gibson's new movie on the Crucifixion of Jesus, "The Passion". In them, they show Jesus being crucified with nails placed in the center of the palms of His hands. In order to support His outstretched arms, they have ropes tied around His arms (at what looks like the elbow area) to the horizontal beam of the cross. This would be extremely logical on the part of the Romans in which to create a second fulcrum or pressure point in order to alleviate the stress placed on the nails at the hand/wrist area. Not only would it support the body better, but it would prevent the nails from being torn through the hands. On the other hand (no pun intended), I think that it would not make for a quicker death in that it would prolong the agony of the crucified person by not allowing the condemned to tire himself out by trying to lift up his torso in which to breath more easily (also thwarted by the Romans breaking the legs of the crucified person in order to counteract the natural tendency one would have to use the legs to lift his body up in order to breathe). It has been medically shown that death via crucifixion was due in part to suffocation by reversing the aspiration process that we as humans need to survive. We inhale oxygen with the lungs in conjunction with the diaphragm and abdominal muscles, and reverse the process when we exhale. Crucifixion alters this process. The condemned were forced to reverse this sequence by breathing in what oxygen they could manage (where we would normally exhale) and exhale where we would normally inhale. A very painful process indeed. This process allowed for fluid and carbon dioxide to build up in the lungs thus suffocating the crucified individual. This build up of fluid in the lungs has been attributed as the reason for the presence of blood and water to have flowed forth from Jesus' side after being pierced by the lance.

Your example of crucifixion as found in the Qur'an is an eye-opener for me. I am not really familiar with the teachings of the Qur'an, but to read your comment makes me think that the Moslem form of crucifixion would be a bit more painful than the Roman form in that the condemned would have to deal with the pain of having his hands and feet amputated, but I think that due to massive bloodloss, his death would be quicker.

An excellent medical document on Jesus' Crucifixion was written and illustrated by a team of doctors at the Mayo Clinic back in the mid-eighties and can be found in the March 21st, 1986 edition of JAMA (the Journal of the American Medical Association). I'm sure that with some digging around on the Internet (maybe via Google), someone out there might be able to track down a copy of this article as posted on a website. It is not an article to be passed up as the forensic drawings are very well done. If anyone is able to track this article down, please post the link on this thread. With sincere thanks, Front 242.
91 posted on 08/28/2003 1:19:31 AM PDT by Front 242
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To: milan
My point: to me it seems odd that similar "Christ" wounds would be in a place that Jesus more than likely did not have them. I am not saying that it is fake. I am saying that it seems odd that the wounds would be contarry to the truth as we know it to be

But is it contrary to the truth as we know it? Not nearly everyone knows that Christ's wounds were in his wrists.
117 posted on 10/23/2003 4:56:58 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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