Posted on 08/27/2003 2:06:11 AM PDT by Front 242
I never said they were supernaturally produced marks nor do I believe so. I think you are possibly correct because in Galations 6:11-17 where this verse was found, Paul was arguing against those who would be circumcised to " avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ." The implication being that by marking themselves by circumcision they are avoiding the marks of persecution for their belief in Jesus. But on the other hand the definition of stigma used for the word mark, implies that the wounds may have possibly been self inflicted. I only pointed out two possibilities in this argument (yours and that of self infliction) and neither promoted the idea that Paul had stigmata.
I am sorry if I didn't make myself clear the first time.
tou loipou kopouV moi mhdeiV parecetw, egw gar ta stigmata tou ihsou en tw swmati mou bastazw.
which St. Jerome translated into Latin:
de cetero nemo mihi molestus sit ego enim stigmata Iesu in corpore meo porto
While not addressing specifically the case of St. Paul, from the time information on stigmata was compiled, here is the official list, compliments of catholic.org
2. There are 62 saints or blessed of both sexes of whom the best known were:
St. Francis of Assisi (1186-1226)
St. Lutgarde (1182-1246)
St. Margaret of Cortona (1247-97)
St. Gertrude (1256-1302)
St. Clare of Montefalco (1268-1308)
Bl. Angela of Foligno (d. 1309)
St. Catherine of Siena (1347-80)
St. Lidwine (1380-1433)
St. Frances of Rome (1384-1440)
St. Colette (1380-1447)
St. Rita of Cassia (1386-1456)
Bl. Osanna of Mantua (1499-1505)
St. Catherine of Genoa (1447-1510)
Bl. Baptista Varani (1458-1524)
Bl. Lucy of Narni (1476-1547)
Bl. Catherine of Racconigi (1486-1547)
St. John of God (1495-1550)
St. Catherine de' Ricci (1522-89)
St. Mary Magdalene de' Pazzi (1566-1607)
Bl. Marie de l'Incarnation (1566-1618)
Bl. Mary Anne of Jesus (1557-1620)
Bl. Carlo of Sezze (d. 1670)
Blessed Margaret Mary Alacoque (1647-90)
St. Veronica Giuliani (1600-1727)
St. Mary Frances of the Five Wounds (1715-91)
St. Pio of Pietrelcina (Padre Pio) (1887-1968)
3. There were 20 stigmatics in the nineteenth century. The most famous were:
Catherine Emmerich (1774-1824)
Elizabeth Canori Mora (1774-1825)
Anna Maria Taïgi (1769-1837)
Maria Dominica Lazzari (1815-48)
Marie de Moerl (1812-68) and Louise Lateau (1850-83)
And, then there is the modern day mystic, Maria Esperanza from Venezuela. Mrs. Maria Esperanza is considered by many, one of the greatest mystics of these times. In the midst of her household chores as a wife, mother and grandmother to nineteen grandchildren, God continues to bestow upon her extraordinary gifts and charismata: The stigmata, visions of the future or the gift of prophecy, the gift of healing, appearance or "materialization" of a Holy Host in her mouth, emission of scents of flowers and fruits, apparition of rose petals, levitation, bilocation. And maybe one of the most impressive mystical phenomena: The birth of a rose, or a rose which sprouts out spontaneously from her chest, a phenomenon which now has taken place sixteen times. Some claim to see rose petals fall from the sky around her, not just the smell of roses.
During her younger years Esperanza made the acquaintance of Padre Pio, the most famous mystic since Francis of Assisi, who had told people he expected to be visited by an extraordinary woman. “There is a young woman who is going to come from South America,” Pio said. “When I leave, she will be your consolation.” When finally they met, Maria would hear his “call” even though she was far away near Rome and she would head for his monastery at San Giovanni Rotundo on the barren east side of Italy – where despite throngs waiting to see him the aged priest called out, “Esperanza!”
On September 23, 1968, Maria had a vision of Padre Pio. “Esperanza,” he said in the vision, “I have come to say good-bye. My time has come. It is your turn.” As this was happening Geo watched with amazement as his wife’s face transfigured into that of the Italian priest. The next day they saw in the newspaper that Pio (whose funeral would be attended by more than a million) had died.
My Douai notes; "Formerly it was not unusual to stamp certain characters on the bodies of soldiers, fugitives, and of domestics, purposely to identify them"
I hadn't heard that Paul might have had the stigmata. I was learnt St. Francis was the first.
It is only when Steve comes over to my house and says, "T'heck is the deal with that wall-hanging, the one of St. Francis with his wounds?...and I say, "oh, he received the Stigmata. He was the first one you know."
And you say to me, "well, I gotta get going..and you race out of the house...
Ha Ha Ha...I rarely do think about this. Obviously, one doesn't have to accept this as Doctrine, as least as far as I know, but it is just part of our Tradition and, thankfully, there are much smarter men here than me who can explain it to you. It was Chesterton who noted that many of us know these things in our hearts but it is really tough to put it into words.
I can see why another not raised in our family would be surprised at some of the things I take for granted.
It is only when Steve comes over to my house and says, "T'heck is the deal with that wall-hanging, the one of St. Francis with his wounds?...and I say, "oh, he received the Stigmata. He was the first one you know."
And you say to me, "well, I gotta get going..and you race out of the house...
Ha Ha Ha...I rarely do think about this. Obviously, one doesn't have to accept this as Doctrine, as least as far as I know, but it is just part of our Tradition and, thankfully, there are much smarter men here than me who can explain it to you.
I was learnt it was a sign of God's love and that those He loves the most are willing to undergo suffering for others because, done with right intent, our undergoing suffering for others can be both Salvific and Redemptive.
It was Chesterton who noted that many of us know these things in our hearts but it is really tough to put it into words.
I can see why another not raised in our family would be surprised at some of the things I take for granted.
It is curious. Perhaps the Schism, which introduced a visible wound in the Mystical Body of Christ led to the showing of the wounds of the Body of Christ on certain mystics?
SD
He notes "The wounds do not become festered and the blood flowing from them is pure, whereas the slightest natural lesion in some part of the the body develops an infection. Moreover, the wounds do not yeild to the natural medical treatment and yet they remain for as long as thiry to forty years....Finally true stigmata are not found except in persons who practice the most heroic virtues and possess a special love of the Cross"
That Dictionary is a "must own" for Catholics.
You're welcome. Next time bring your bat and ball and we'll try to hit the ball over ol' man Johnson's house.
If we break a window, we can blame it on Dicky Wilson. He is a Mormon.
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