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To: Aliska
The church needs to address why couples no longer want to have large families,

Agreed.

and I do not believe it has anything to do with changes in the mass.

Are you sure of that? Clearly it has something to do with changes in the Faith. People are no longer living their lives based on Faith and reliance on divine providence. Instead they are living a consumer lifestyle which may or may not include attending church on Sunday morning. Of all the changes to the Faith, all of which certainly are significant, isn't the change to the Mass the biggest one of all?

35 posted on 08/23/2003 8:11:01 AM PDT by Maximilian
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To: Maximilian
Are you sure of that?

Yes, but it's just my opinion. Just because the form and/or structure of the mass changed should have nothing to do with basic moral teachings which are timeless. Most people can grasp that.

People are no longer living their lives based on Faith and reliance on divine providence.

Why should they? They see that priests and the hierarchy have all their earthly needs tended to by the people and contributions to the church and that it has gone on for centuries. Ordinary people feel more of a dependence on God despite the current culture.

Of all the changes to the Faith, all of which certainly are significant, isn't the change to the Mass the biggest one of all?

The change may be significant, but I maintain that people are more prone to think for themselves and not accept everything blindly as they were formerly prone to do. I believe that it is due to ordinary catholics getting educated which was not an option for a large number of them until this past century.

Some of it is probably due more to their mingling with the evil protestants in society and the fact that if the church had its way, all means of contraception would be outlawed or suppressed.

I personally believe that they (laity) would rather strike a balance between a more meaningful existence for their families in this life rather than placing all their hopes on the next one.

If the church would address the real problem about how people are supposed to support a family of eight, ten or more children in our modern society in a more practical way rather than blandly telling them to rely on providence when they don't have to themselves, people still would probably want to limit their families, but things would be more honest that way.

People in first-world countries are starting to think for themselves and take charge of that part of their lives they can control. That is the root of the problem.

41 posted on 08/23/2003 10:16:06 AM PDT by Aliska
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To: Maximilian
re: family size

It may not all have something to do with the Mass, but I think it does have something with to do with the concept I have increasingly encountered whereby any document on Catholic faith or morals which existed prior to Vatican II is ignored, however, Vatican II documents in all their fuzzy glory are constantly quoted, although they themselves are not binding on the faithful.
The other thing is it has to do with is priestly formation.
60 posted on 08/23/2003 1:01:16 PM PDT by Smocker
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To: Maximilian; Aliska; ThomasMore; sinkspur
Max: people have been wrapped up in consumerism since at least the 1920's. Pull out a long term demographic of the US, and note the longstanding decline in the birth-rate since the late 1800's.

Again, I'll harp on this, both the number of marriages and the number of infant baptisms in the Catholic Church in the US during the past 15 years, and during the height of the "baby boom" from 1948-1963 are roughly the same. If its all "changes in faith" and "contraception" since 1965, how is this even remotely possible? The numbers shouldn't even be close!

The rampant materialism of Catholics since the 1920's is obvious in the Churches built since the return of prosperity after WWII. Uniformly ugly and nearly unrecognizeable as Churches, both before and after Vatican II.

How about a survey on "living a consumer lifestyle" among the Catholics here? I have one car, a '98 Camry, an 1800 sq. ft. 3 bedroom house on a small lot, and 3 kids with more to come. Most of my mostly Catholic neighborhood in the city is pretty similar, as are the other Catholic neighborhoods. Is my neighborhood more "rampantly consumeristic" than the people at your Parish?

Last thought, I'm unfamiliar with any differences in "the Faith" in the past 2000 years. Perhaps you mean differences in disciplines?
77 posted on 08/24/2003 8:38:47 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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