An Orthodox Christian View of Non-Christian Religions

Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America ^

[Guyin4Os]

It cannot be assumed that salvation is denied non-Christians living in true piety

This is a great distortion of what the Orthodox church teaches.

No it isn't. The article says that the pious of other religions are saved by Christ, even if they don't believe in him. Example: "It cannot be assumed that salvation is denied non-Christians living in true piety..." Examine this statement. It claims that piety ie, religious lifestyle is what is important for salvation. It does not say that belief in Christ is necessary. In fact, it discounts belief in Christ.

The implications of the article are that a pious Hindu who doesn't believe in Christ, who doesn't trust Him, who doesn't hold to the doctrines of the atonement, the resurrection, the Holy Trinity, the Virgin Birth or even the basic monotheism of Christianity, will nevertheless be saved by Christ, even in his unbelief.... because he is a pious Hindu. He believes in Lakshmi, the cow god, Hannuman, the Monkey God. He does not believe in Christ. He may drink milk out of a dish from which rats have drunk because of his respect for the rat god. But he is pious. The article tells us that God is inclusive and will reach out to save that individual who is worshipping other gods because he is pious.

The implications of this are grave because the Orthodox Church now teaches that piety is that which gains favor with God, not faith. This is an alteration of everything The Savior says in the Gospel of John. Frightening, the eagerness of the Orthodox Church to change the words of the Savior, who said "...whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life."

[Guyin4Os]

So you accept Jews are damned?

Yes, those who reject the provision the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob for their sins, the Blood of Christ. But to those who accept Him, he will give the right to be children of God, even to those who believe in His name.

Saint Paul does teach in Romans that all Jews who happen to be alive when the Savior returns will indeed accept Him and thus be saved. But once more, FAITH in CHRIST is what is necessary.

[Guyin4Os]

Yes, those who reject the provision the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob for their sins, the Blood of Christ

This sentence should read: Yes, those who reject the provision the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has made for their sins, the Blood of Christ.

Sorry for any inconvenience and misunderstanding my omission may have caused.

[MarMema]

The article tells us that God is inclusive and will reach out to save that individual who is worshipping other gods because he is pious.

Where, exactly, does it say this? Please provide a direct quote.

[MarMema]

You would probably gain much understanding by looking up and reading about apophatic theology.

[MarMema]

Apophatic Theology

"Apophatic" is "a term used to refer to a particular style [or aspect] of theology, which stressed that God cannot be known in terms of human categories." The word apophatic comes from the Greek word apophasis, meaning negation. This negative way of thinking about God is foundational to Eastern Orthodox thought, giving her "doctrine as a whole... a certain laconic tone," causing "outright reticence in approaching certain matters."

"....The western world in general does not understand that sometimes knowing less really can, paradoxically, lead to a greater understanding."

[MarMema]

By the way you replaced my quote of yours, from my post to you, with one from the article, apparently.

[MarMema]

Examine this statement. It claims that piety ie, religious lifestyle is what is important for salvation. It does not say that belief in Christ is necessary. In fact, it discounts belief in Christ

We don't accept the justification-by-faith of the protestant churches. Even the demons believe.

But it will be a cold day when the Orthodox church is discounting belief in Christ, all the same. Your zeal is not matched with knowledge of our church.

[armydoc]

If you get only one thing out of Jesus' words in the Gospels, its that belief in Him is the key to salvation. He also said this would be a "stumbling block" to some. Looks like the OE church stubbed their collective toe. How can fairness/justice be served with such a "scandal of exclusivity"? I'll leave that up to God, thank you very much. We get into trouble when we try to out-think God.

[No.6]

"I just wonder how long before some of them might start talking about how there's no need to evangelize the Jews, that they don't need Christ.

That's where Rome's doctrine of Invincible Ignorance leads when you follow it. I'm just not sure if the Orthodox are aware that this is path that led Rome to stop presenting a witness to Jews and allowed their pope to get away with kissing the Koran (paying homage to a false god and a false scripture that explicitly denies Christ's crucifixion and resurrection)."

I am specifically not interested in taking sides on Catholic/Protestant flamethreads.

I can say based on the text provided by "RussianConservative," by what it references, and by other articles on its site that the American branch of the Greek Orthodox Church appears IMO to have fallen under the control of flaky leftism. For that reason, and not because of any similarity to Catholicism, they will almost certainly continue to err.

So far as I can tell this doesn't appear to be the case in European Greek or Russian Orthodox branches.

[Guyin4Os]

We don't accept the justification-by-faith of the protestant churches

I rest my case.

[Guyin4Os]

But it will be a cold day when the Orthodox church is discounting belief in Christ

But this is what the posted article does. It says that there will be people who do not have faith in Christ who will nevertheless be saved. If this is a teaching you wish to hold, fine. But don't disguise it as biblical teaching, because it is not.

[MarMema]

We get into trouble when we try to out-think God.

Exactly. Wise words. Thank you.

[MarMema]

But this is what the posted article does. It says that there will be people who do not have faith in Christ who will nevertheless be saved. If this is a teaching you wish to hold, fine. But don't disguise it as biblical teaching, because it is not.

Well we are not sola scriptura either. But you are wrong in thinking that we are saying that people without faith in Christ will be saved. What we say is that it is possible that this will happen, not that it will happen.
It's important to understand the distinction.

In fact, the Orthodox church does not say that *anyone* is saved in advance, not even our own clergy and members.
What we do is leave it entirely open as a possibility.

And no matter what Holy Scripture you quote, you don't know what judgements Christ will make either. You just think you do.

[MarMema]

John Climacus (579 - 649) contrasts the experiential emphasis with a mere conceptual or linguistic view of God's revelation: "Do you imagine plain words can precisely or truly or appropriately describe the love of the Lord... and assurance of the heart? Do you imagine that talk of such matters will mean anything to someone who has never experienced them? If you think so, then you will be like a man who with words and examples tries to convey the sweetness of honey to people who have never tasted it. He talks uselessly. Indeed I would say he is simply prattling."

I'll email you. :-)

[Guyin4Os]

Well we are not sola scriptura either

Code for: "the teachings of the church override the teachings of scripture."

And no matter what Holy Scripture you quote, you don't know what judgements Christ will make either. You just think you do.

This is an amazing thing, that you know what I think. Seriously here, God is consistent with His word. We do know that the judgements He makes will not contradict what He has stated in His word.

But you are wrong in thinking that we are saying that people without faith in Christ will be saved. What we say is that it is possible that this will happen, not that it will happen.

This is the entire thrust of the article, that faith in Christ is not necessary for salvation; PIETY is.

OK. Lets sum up our conversation so far. The Orthodox Church believes: 1.) Church teachings can override the scriptures, 2.) Faith in Christ is not necessary for salvation, 3.) Faith in Christ is not SUFFICIENT for salvation, since you do not believe in justification by faith, 4.) Christ's judgements may not be consistent with His word, 5.) an idolater may be saved if he is pious. Have I left anything out?

[MarMema]

If you really are interested in what we believe you can check out our website at www.oca.org.

I don't have any interest in playing word games. If you don't like us, that's fine too.

[MarMema]

Code for: "the teachings of the church override the teachings of scripture."

But actually this is not true for us. I'd be willing to bet we spend more time with Scripture on a Sunday morning than most protestant churches do.

[Boiler Plate]

"On another thread I pointed to the incident in the life of St. Gregory the Dialogist as recorded by a monk of Whitby, in which the sainted Pope prayed for the soul of the Emperor Tarjan (a pagan) because of a deed of charity the Emperor had done, and the dead Emperor was 'baptized with the tears' of the saint. Observe that the salvation of Tarjan was salvation through Christ: the prayers of a Christian provided the 'motive power' for his removal from hell to paradise.

The Church prays generally for all mankind, and every Pentecost for those confined in hell. We are forbidden from believing that all will be saved, but who, in spite of dying outside the communion of the Church, in spite of the falsehood of beliefs held during life, but aided by the prayers of the Church and perhaps by fragmentary true belief and deeds worthy of Christian, may be saved who would seem lost, we do not know."


Neither of these paragraphs contain anything that can be supported by Scripture nor do they fall into any theology that is wholy within the framework of the canonized Bible. Where in the world did this concept of praying on Pentecost for those in Hell come from?

Regards,
Boiler Plate

[mitch5501]

"Scripture says quite plainly "God is love". Where else does it say what God *is*, in the Bible? Just curious."

Hebrews 12:29 "For our God is a consuming fire"

God bless

mitch