Posted on 08/13/2003 6:04:31 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian
but, of course, they like Monty Python.
"Bring out your dead!"
Arminian: "I'm not quite dead yet!"
Jean
"Bring out your dead!"
Arminian: "I'm not quite dead yet!"
Jean
Well, the thought is a little too deep for you.(Heb.5:12)
The omniscience of God comprehends all things-things past, things present and things future and the possible as well as the actual. As set forth in the Bible,the works of God are, as to their time relations, declared to be of th epast, of the present, and of the future. By divine arrangement events do follow in sequence or chronological order. Yet, to God, the things of the past as real as though now present and things of the future are as real as though past....Strictly speaking the distinction between of foreknowledge in God is a human conception (emphasis added) for divine foreknowledge is simultaneous as opposed to succession....In the creatures mind there is such a succession and God knows there will be such a succession; but there is no such order in God's knowledge; for he knows all these successions by one glance, without any succession of knowledge in himself (Charnocke God's Knowledge, cited by Shedd )....It should be observed tht God formed His decree in eternity, though it's execution is in time. The decree is eternal, all its parts are in the mind of God, but one intuition, though its realization there is succession.(Chafer,Systematic Theology, Vo.1, p.192-193,228)
This is basic theology.
Since it is 31 verses you are talking about, if you narrow it down to particular verses, I will be happy to tell you what he wrote on the subject.
KNOW WITH CERTAINTY that God ORDAINED them to come to hear the gospel But the ancestors that did not come are not saved because of their children. God did not ordain that they would hear it and be saved
Second, who said that the ancestors were saved?
You were asking about those who never got a chance to hear the Gospel and I said that God can get the information to whosoever He knows will respond.
That is no more difficult for God then getting the Gospel to someone who He has unconditionally elected to salvation.
If He can do that, He can do the same for those who are conditionally elected.
The only way your argument holds water is if you think the elect do not have to be saved by hearing the Gospel, which some Calvinists have taught!
What a thought, God knowing who would respond to the Gospel and arranging it so they could hear it! God actually controlling events in history! A fine calvinist belief
A fine Biblical belief one that Arminius and Wesley held.
Finally, you are confusing fairness with equality. Those are socialist notions, not Christian ones. To be fair, God does not have to deal with everyone equally. But you believe He does Ed. Is it equitable that some men hear the gospel and other do not? How can you say that God desires ALL MEN without exception to be saved when God ordained the location and time of mens birth for all time . He knew well that many would never hear and come He had ordained it
God does not have to send the Gospel to everyman if God knows they are going to reject Him at the point of natural revelation (Psa 19, Rom.1 and 2!)
That is why man is held accountable even if they did not hear the Gospel and why they are not as punished as those who did but rejected it.
God only needs to give everyone an equal chance not the same equal circumstances. Ed read they then think about it oK Has God given the men in the Bush in 1800 an equal chance to hear the gospel as you?
God has given the man in the Bush the same access to salvation as I have, if that man is positive.
Are you telling me that God did not elect any Bush men to salvation?
That the Gospel has never gotten to them?
If God could make sure that the unconditionally elect Bush man would hear the Gospel, He can make sure that the conditionally elect one would also.
Finally, the Bible is in just about every language, either the TR or a translation of the King James. Our Wycliffe missionary works in the Congo , he said that there are 20,000 non written languages in the congo they have no Bible .
There may not be a Bible for every language (and most people of the world speak more then one language), there are portions of the Bible in the various dialects.
So, there are no unconditionally elect people in the Congo?
Your limitations on what God can do if He wants to get someone saved is quite naive.
Why do you limit God's power as well as His Love?
"Wycliffe International's work is to facilitate the translation of God's Word into every language that needs it. Wycliffe has organizations in nearly forty countries and has had a part in translating over 500 New Testaments into minority and indigenous languages. Fifteen hundred more translation projects representing over 70 countries, are in progress.
I think you made my point!
How do you get man making the first step when it is God who creates nature and man's ability to respond to it?
God has already initiated salvation to man by making Himself knowable, it is up to man to respond to that knowledge which is grace.
Man never initiates anything with God, God is always initiating since He is the one who created man and nature and knows that man is responsible for responding to what God has created (Rom.1:28)
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God dwelleth in him and he in God.
Vance has a couple of entries on 1Jn.4:14 but nothing on 1Jn.4:15.
As for Vance, he is a King James Believing Baptist.
He has written a small, basic grammer on Hebrew.
As for the Greek works, yes I do have a number of them, however not as many as the translators of the King James had access to, one of them having every extent Greek work in his own home!
How is 1Jn.4:15 a Calvinistic proof-text?
Guess you came to this discussion late. connectthedots made some arguments based upon 'whosoever'. I simply pointed out that this was simply the definite relative pronoun 'hos' and did not convey the meaning he claimed. I cited Wallace to support the claim. I pinged steve because he has more training in Greek than I. You then offered to consult Vance. I guess vance did not discuss the issue.
Such misanalysis of 'whosoever' is common. Dave Hunt does this with John 3:16. In that case, the literal translation is 'all the one believing will have eternal life.' In this case, the focus is that all belivers have eternal life. Calvinists and Arminians agree on this. It does not address the identity of 'all believing ones' beyond coming out of the world. This is entirely consistent with John's useage in Rev 5:9...
No, not with that particular verse.
But how does changing the verse to mean 'whoever' change the meaning of it?
The NIV translates it as 'anyone' Whoever is listed as a synonym for 'whosoever'in the dictionary.
Moreover, every major English translation since Tyndale had 'whosoever' for that verse, thus, it is not incorrect usage.
Such misanalysis of 'whosoever' is common. Dave Hunt does this with John 3:16. In that case, the literal translation is 'all the one believing will have eternal life.' In this case, the focus is that all belivers have eternal life. Calvinists and Arminians agree on this. It does not address the identity of 'all believing ones' beyond coming out of the world. This is entirely consistent with John's useage in Rev 5:9...
You are giving a distinction without a difference!
So, we change the word to 'whoever' and how does that change the meaning of the word in the context?
In fact, when God wants to describe 'all kinds of people' He does just that as in Rev.5:9.
As for Jn.3:16, the NIV, NASB, and NKJ all have 'whoever'(synonym for whosoever').
Now, in Rev.5:9, God is using 'pas' to say that He is taking people out of every nation and tribe,(without exception) not just 'all kinds' of tribes and nations (without distinction)
Frankly, 'every' means the same in Rev.5:9 as it does in Jn.3:16, without exception.
The result is all kinds of people, but they come from every nation and tribe (without exception)
1 John 2:23 Whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father John 10:9 "I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved." John 11:25 Whoever believes in me will never die. John 11:26 Whoever believes in Jesus will never die John 3:15 Whoever believes in Him shall not perish John 3:16 Whoever believes in Him shall have eternal life John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned John 3:21 Whoever lives by the truth … John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life John 4:13 Whoever drinks the water I give will never thirst John 4:14 Whoever drinks the water will never thirst John 5:24 Whoever hears my words … has eternal life John 6:37 Whoever comes to me I will never drive away John 6:53 Whoever eats my flesh … has eternal life John 6:54 Whoever drinks the blood of Jesus has eternal life John 6:56 Whoever drinks the blood of Jesus remains in Jesus John 6:56 Whoever eats my flesh … remains in me John 7:38 Whoever believes in Jesus will have streams of living water flow through them John 8:12 Whoever follows me … will have the light of life Luke 12:8 Whoever acknowledges Jesus before men will be acknowledged before the angels Luke 9:24 "For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it." Mark 16:16 Whoever believes … will be saved. Mark 3:35 Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother. Mark 8:35 "For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it." Matthew 10:32 Whoever acknowledges Jesus before men will be acknowledged before God Matthew 16:25 "Whoever loses his life for me will find it."
http://www.biblehelp.org/biblesay.htm
Frankly, 'every' means the same in Rev.5:9 as it does in Jn.3:16, without exception. The result is all kinds of people, but they come from every nation and tribe (without exception)
Calvinists and Arminians agree on this. Every believer in John 3:16 receives eternal life. There is no such thing as "a believing one" who does not receive eternal life. We all agree on this. These believing ones come from every tribe, tongue, nation, and people as demonstrated in rev 5:9. This is the universal nature of the atonement according to Calvinism. I think xzins summarized it well as: "No unbelievers in heaven and no believers in hell."
Calvinists just claim that the Scriptures teach that these believers are the ones drawn by the Father in John 6:35-65 and that unbelievers are not drawn in this same way.
Well, we agree on what the Calvinists are saying, but the verses they appeal to do not say what they want them to say.
Now, does the 'every' in Rev.5:9 refer to all without 'exception' or without 'distinction'?
Clearly, there will not be a tribe or nation that will not have saved people from it, so the pas is without exception, just like it is in Jn.3:16, everyone (without exception) who believes will be saved-period.
That the Calvinists bring theological issues into the verses is exactly what my earlier post from BibleHelp.org was saying.
You are bending the verses to make them mean what your theology dicates it must mean.
You are bending the verses to make them mean what your theology dicates it must mean.
Not true. Words have semantic domains. Context guides in the choice.
Very true.
Thus, we are really fighting over interpetations of context, not the meaning of the words themselves.
Thus, appealing to the Greek as if it were some explaination of the text is a bit disingenuous.
You do not believe Jn.3:16 says that anyone can be saved simply because your theology rejects that notion.
There is nothing in the context or the words themselves that would lead one to accept that conclusion.
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