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Author Kenneth Jones Provides Statistical Evidence of Post-Vatican II Decline in the Catholic Church
Catholic Citizens News Service ^ | 8/12/2003 | Karl Maurer

Posted on 08/12/2003 7:52:00 PM PDT by Land of the Irish

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To: Maximilian
I'd reject that advice. To me, it appears he is addressing an audience sufficiently catechised to recognise the purpose of the Mass and informed enough to recognise Liturgical abuses which, to my way of thinking, renders the reason for missing Mass insufficient.

A valid Mass, even poorly offered, is infinitely more pleasing to God than prayers offered at home.

It could be accurate that one's local Parish is an occasion for a perpetual Lent, but, if it is, so be it.

Attend. Pray. Speak with the Pastor. Organise. Protest. Oppose. Petition. Speak with the local Bishop. Go to the Press. But, don't let the enemy keep the keys to the gate of the city.

41 posted on 08/13/2003 4:47:51 AM PDT by As you well know...
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To: narses; sinkspur
What on earth is a novus ordo deacon anyway? What is the need these days? Female 'eucharistic ministers' can bring Communion to those that are sick, altar girls can 'bring up the gifts', women lectors can read the epistle, etc., etc. Nuns these days can even do a service without Communion. I detect a little self-indulgent pride on the part of those that are 'deacons' in the new order, a certain "I'm not getting enough out of Mass but if I can get a title and somehow get up on stage then I'll really be religious". I'm not suggesting this about Mr. Sink but the word 'deacon' just gets me wondering.
42 posted on 08/13/2003 5:45:06 AM PDT by sydney smith
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To: Land of the Irish
A bunch of numbers from the study were published in the St. Joseph Foundation's newsletter which I read last night. Interestingly, the number of adult conversions to the Faith has increased since 1965. But a note of despair: annulments went from c.100 to c.50,000 from 1965-2000(?). Absolutely horrifying.
43 posted on 08/13/2003 5:57:57 AM PDT by ninenot (Progressives make mistakes. Conservatives don't correct them.--Chesterton)
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To: Maximilian
In all charity, I thought this was a discussion about forms, not about the rock foundation of the Church which cannot be any different for a novus ordo or trad.

It is very sorrowful that we can't discuss things without a ~boycott~. As I've said, the Presence is real in every Mass. That doesn't change. What changes is people's Ownership of it. We own nothing.
44 posted on 08/13/2003 6:22:59 AM PDT by OpusatFR (proudly tv free since 2003)
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To: Maximilian; boromeo; saradippity
I suppose you are able to offer even the tiniest shred of data to support your accusations? Michael Rose has hard facts, interviews and arrest reports to go on. What evidence do you have to support your thesis?

I am currently reading about this exact truth (no accusations, just the facts, ma'am!) in "The Desolate City" - Revolution in the Catholic Church. It was written by Anne Roche Muggeridge who is not exactly a liberal!

I think if you do a bit of searching around on google, see who recommends the book and see the reviews on it, it will be a must read for you. Unfortunately it is out of print but I did a search on Amazon and was able to get a used copy for about $6.00. It is footnoted and has every bit of information backed up and is not written in an alarmist tone at all, in fact, it is really a history book. And a good one, imo. The most coherent and researched book on this subject that I've read.

45 posted on 08/13/2003 6:26:04 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: Land of the Irish
Jones concludes that the Second Vatican Council wasn’t so much a spark that lit a dry forest, but a force that broke a dam which held back oceans of dissent and heresy. The application of the reform of Vatican II says Jones, combined with the social and technological changes going on in the world, has been a complete disaster.

I'd posit that the first sentence in the above quote is partly true, in a way. Pius XII was autocratic, especially towards the end of his pontificate when he saw the rampant liberalism simmering beneath the surface of the clergy. He was resented by a lot of cardinals and bishops who felt that Pius kept them from being equals with him as in: "Pius was first among equals." From what I have read, resentment of Pius was particularly true in the Rhine countries.

So here comes John, congenial and simple, wanting to bring the Church up to date - a modernization and simplification of procedures and disciplines in order to sort of "spring clean" the Church's treasures in case anyone stopped by, so to speak. That was his version of ecumenism. He saw, during the first council, how the whole thing was being hijacked by the radicals and liberals and tried to stop the council then and there. But he died.

Paul was orthodox but indecisive it seems to me. But he also was distressed at the abuses but apparently was powerless to stop them.

A disaster? I think the disaster is in us. The documents of the council are not radical at all, imo. But what was loosed during that time were theologians who openly flaunted and published their dissent on matters of dogma, doctrine and Tradition - the full page ad taken out in the NYTimes (sometime in '69), by prominent Catholic theologians, is breathtaking in its dissent and disobedience. And Paul found himself powerless to act immediately. So now we had, in effect, two magisteriums - one in Rome and one in the dissenting theologians. Taking up the cross is much easier when you follow the theologians, and that is what most of us did. And nothing much happened!

With the new open society of free love and self gratification beckoning us with its promise of happiness and freedom, we ran with open arms!

It really is a time of trial and tribulation for orthodox Catholics... the world is really against what we are praying to become. And history repeats itself!

46 posted on 08/13/2003 6:59:48 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: Maximilian
Prayers for the Roman Catholic faithful in these turbulent times.....
47 posted on 08/13/2003 7:40:57 AM PDT by tracer (/b>)
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To: Maximilian
Vatican II accomplished some good, though in the negatives definitly outweight the positives. I think Paul VI summed it up best, "The Devil is in the Church, smoke is around the altar."

But the heresy was already in the Church. Liberation Theology (Marxism) was in the Church prior to Vatican II, Piux XII constantly was battling these heretical theologians, one of them, a Jesuit named Jean Baptiste Hilfert (I think), led Pius XII to exclaim, "I want Jean Baptiste's head on a plate."
48 posted on 08/13/2003 7:54:09 AM PDT by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: american colleen
Malachi Martin wrote a book a while back, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church." While I don't have as negative view of everything as he does, he does view Paul VI the same way you do. As someone who was very orthodox, but powerless. He wrote it only two years into John Paul II's papacy, so he doesn't conclude anything, though, I think John Paul has done something to turn the tide back a little, but the damage to Papal authority, already done, has limited the impact he can have in dealing with heretics.
49 posted on 08/13/2003 7:56:50 AM PDT by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: american colleen
"The Desolate City" - Revolution in the Catholic Church. It was written by Anne Roche Muggeridge who is not exactly a liberal!

Good suggestion. I've wanted to read that book but have never stumbled across a copy. I'll keep my eyes open.

50 posted on 08/13/2003 8:04:36 AM PDT by Maximilian
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To: Thorondir
I don't get it. No reasonable, faithful Catholic could doubt that modernism has been deadly for the Catholic Church. But why do you blame Vatican 2 for the debacle? If you are opposed to the TOTALITY of bishops, and a succession of Popes, how can you not be a schismatic?

"Do you deny that your Amchurch bretheren abort, live in sin, refuse confession, contracept and divorce at the very same rate as the pagans around us?"

Those who are ETHNICALLY Catholic (i.e., NOT Catholic but identify themselves as Catholic because they are Irish, Italian, Polish or Hispanic) do. Those who go the Catholic mass do much less frequently.
51 posted on 08/13/2003 8:10:16 AM PDT by dangus
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To: NWU Army ROTC
It seems (to me, anyhow!) that papal authority was at its peak under Pius XII (who started up the reform of the liturgy in the 40s - Mediator Dei), and because he was so autocratic the/some bishops & cardinals rebelled. Paul VI seemed to allow the "many voices" and wait too long to make a decision (Humanae Vitae) thereby giving the "many voices" time to gain momentum. He was orthodox - Humanae Vitae doesn't get any more orthodox - but seemed to view the papacy more as "first among equals" and did not like to rebuke those who dissented although he publicly expressed distress at the errors that were gaining ground. Things happen and people are elected for a reason if we believe Jesus when He said that the gates won't prevail and if we believe Him when He gave the "bound and loose" talk. Following Him is not easy, He told us that. And Peter was a (the) leader, not a dictator. These are turbulent times, for sure, but in the context of eternity or even the past 2,000 years, these times are a blip on the screen (seems like forever to those of us that pray for everyone to be faithful to the Magisterium, though!).
52 posted on 08/13/2003 8:14:27 AM PDT by american colleen
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Comment #53 Removed by Moderator

To: Maximilian
I hope you can get your hands on a copy. There seem to be quite a few around secondhand. I read all kinds of stuff - a couple of months ago I was given stuff to read by a SSPX priest who my uncle knows and I also read the "progressive" stuff. "The desolate city" is the only book I have read that seems to have no agenda but merely presents the facts - all backed up with evidence. I've seen no personal opinions or blanket condemnations or ad hominems contained in it.

She also wrote "The gates of hell" and I'd like to get a copy of that.

54 posted on 08/13/2003 8:19:23 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: sandyeggo
I can't recommend it highly enough. I got the recommendation from something I read which was written by Fr. Joseph Wilson.

Way worth reading.

55 posted on 08/13/2003 8:20:39 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: NWU Army ROTC
a Jesuit named Jean Baptiste Hilfert (I think), led Pius XII to exclaim, "I want Jean Baptiste's head on a plate."

Good story. But the point is that if Pius XII wanted his head on a plate, he would have gotten it. Many theologians were censured during the 1950's. Encyclicals were written (e.g. Mediator Dei) which condemned specific propositions of the liberals. Individuals were forbidden to teach and write.

Then almost without exception, every theologian who had been condemned under Pius XII was made a peritus at Vatican II by John XXIII or Paul VI. What does this tell you about the scope of the plan and whether the popes were helpless victims?

56 posted on 08/13/2003 8:21:09 AM PDT by Maximilian
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To: Maximilian
I am no fan of Vatican II. But, I never lived in the pre-Vatican II Church. I Love the Latin Mass, but I also realize that we can never get rid of the Novus Ordo. Vatican II happened, it cannot be cancelled, it can be fought. The good (I do think the Novus Ordo was a good, provided it is celebrated reverentially) can be kept and hoepfully the bad can at least be checked.

As American Colleen wrote, the Popes since Vatican II have viewed themselves as more of a "First Among Equals." That is fine, as long as the Pope realized that heresy and apostasy cannot be allowed and occasionally the "First Among Equals" emphasises the "First."
58 posted on 08/13/2003 8:27:23 AM PDT by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: american colleen
Humanae Vitae doesn't get any more orthodox

If this is the best that can be said for Pope Paul VI, then that's more like damning with faint praise. Humanae Vitae is NOT orthodox, it is a dramatic departure from the consistent teaching of the Church. Read HV side by side with Casti Connubii, and you will see the difference between the pre-conciliar and post-conciliar Church. HV promotes a new philosophy of "personalism" that had never been seen in the 2000-year history of the Church. Casti Connubii followed the traditional teaching of St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, prior popes and moral theologians.

It's true that HV maintained the distinction between natural and artificial birth control. But that's about it. The rest of the Church's teaching on marriage, family, birth, and children went by the wayside.

59 posted on 08/13/2003 8:27:47 AM PDT by Maximilian
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To: sandyeggo
Very cool! Thanks for that site listing. Too bad you did it out in the open where all the rest of these heretics can access it as well ;-). What I like about the Muggeridge book is that it is not hard to read - some stuff is so hard to follow and also is very dry. When I was reading "The Desolate City" I couldn't wait to come home from work at night, make a cup of tea and read it for an hour before bed.

Just to get you fired up:

The Desolate City: The Catholic Church in Ruins, by Anne Roche Muggeridge

Reviewed by Michael Gilchrist

Those already familiar with an earlier work by Malcolm Muggeridge's courageous, Canadian-born daughter-in-law, titled The Gates of Hell, will know what to expect from this latest study of the post-Vatican II Catholic Church. (The American edition is, more accurately, subtitled Revolution in the Catholic Church.)

Despite a succession of devastating accounts of spiritual corruption and decline in sections of the Catholic Church in the Western world by the likes of James Hitchcock, Michael Davies, Msgr George Kelly and Christopher Derrick, the silent majority of Church-attending Catholics seems still blissfully unaware of any serious crisis of faith.

If Anne Roche Muggeridge's latest book fails to arouse more of the Catholic electorate - or of that minority which still reads religious literature - it seems nothing ever will.

The contents of The Desolate City are mostly familiar - liturgical decadence, rebellion over Humanae Vitae, scriptural and doctrinal adventurism, collapse of religious life and rabid feminism - but the author's finely chiselled thesis on "revolution" and her passionate style and devastating wit and satire make Anne Roche Muggeridge possibly the most effective of the Church's counter-revolutionary writers.

Revolution
The author documents and analyses most convincingly her thesis that the Church in the West - although she is unspecific about whether her account applies equally outside North America and Western Europe - has experienced the classic phases of revolution: an aggrieved class (theologians and religious), a climate conducive to radical change (the cultural and moral upheaval of the 1960s), a weakened government (Paul Vl and certain national hierarchies), a triggering incident (Humanae Vitae and the organised opposition), moderate and radical phases and finally consolidation and institutionalisation of the revolution. The last phase is evident in the numerous, powerful newchurch bureaucracies.

The flavour of an arrogant, strutting revolution is brilliantly captured in numerous quotable vignettes. We read that "the age of the orange clerical turtleneck dawned" and that Fr Gregory Baum, formerly a peritus for the Canadian Bishops at Vatican II, who then left the priesthood and married without being laicised, was now helping to form future priests in Toronto. Hans Kung, one of the few revolutionaries even to have "his wrists slapped", continues to offer anti-Papal diatribes before admiring crowds at Catholic venues, to draw media applause and to receive high fees and embraces from Notre Dame's Richard McBrien."

Anne Roche Muggeridge demonstrates most forcibly what many of us have begun, belatedly, to realise, that a full-scale revolution has been completed within the Church, a new Reformation institutionalised, involving a sweeping takeover of Catholic structures with a "liberal consensus" created, and dissent made orthodoxy. At the same time, non-revolutionised Catholics have "begun to behave like exiles".

Dismissive labels
Interestingly, the author points out that whereas the expressions "liberal" and "conservative" Catholic had some meaning at the time of Vatican II, they are now weapons of the revolutionary new church. Yesterday's liberals, who wished for a more participative liturgy, less oppressive Curia and some reform of religious life, are now dismissed by today's so-called liberals as right-wingers or extreme conservatives. Terms such as "liberal", "radical", or "progressive" Catholic are today little more than euphemisms for agnosticism and secular humanism.

Official teaching on the divinity of Jesus, the Trinity, the virginity of Mary, miracles, the founding of the Church by Jesus or the Resurrection may still be on the books and taught forcefully and unambiguously by the Pope, but the actual teaching is radically different. Nevertheless, local bishops continue to speak and act as if this situation did not exist. The author observes dryly: "Lonely counter-revolutionaries are the only safe targets left for bishops to shoot at."

Anne Roche Muggeridge sets the present post-Vatican II revolution in the context of the 16th century Protestant "revolution" and the turn of the century modernist crisis, themselves with roots in Genesis. She sees the new humanistic liturgy as the most potent vehicle for implanting the new revolution, for here the horizontal has crowded out the vertical. She argues further that the effect of such liturgical revolution has been to make it easier for Catholics to accept the secular community's "libertine values".

Nevertheless, Anne Roche Muggeridge sees hope for the future despite her devastating and convincing analysis of the Church in ruins. There is not only the wider perspective of history, but the advent of a remarkable new Pope.

The Desolate City has to be required reading for all would-be informed Catholics. The Church definitely needs more of its members to be inspired by the example of this brave and remarkable woman.

60 posted on 08/13/2003 8:34:19 AM PDT by american colleen
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