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To: fortheDeclaration
So according to mini-g if everyone said 'no' heaven would be empty or if everyone said 'yes' hell would be humanless?

The term "author of sin" is meaningless apart from a clear definition.
83 posted on 08/01/2003 2:57:00 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
So according to mini-g if everyone said 'no' heaven would be empty or if everyone said 'yes' hell would be humanless?

Kind of a mute point, since someone did say 'yes' to heaven.

Now, that would be a horrible thought, an empty hell!

Do you think man is there because God wants them there?

As for your feigned confusion on 'authorship', here is Calvin explaining who is really responsible for Adam's fall.

The 'moderate' Calvinists attempt to remove this responsiblity by shifting around the 'logical' order the decrees, which is nothing but window dressing.

http://www.reformed.org/books/institutes/bk3ch23.html

4. They again object, Were not men predestinated by the ordination of God to that corruption which is now held forth as the cause of condemnation? If so, when they perish in their corruptions they do nothing else than suffer punishment for that calamity, into which, by the predestination of God, Adam fell, and dragged all his posterity headlong with him. Is not he, therefore, unjust in thus cruelly mocking his creatures?

I admit that by the will of God all the sons of Adam fell into that state of wretchedness in which they are now involved; (emphasis added) and this is just what I said at the first, that we must always return to the mere pleasure of the divine will, the cause of which is hidden in himself.

But it does not forthwith follow that God lies open to this charge. For we will answer with Paul in these words, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?" (Rom. 9: 20, 21.)

They will deny that the justice of God is thus truly defended, and will allege that we seek an evasion, such as those are wont to employ who have no good excuse. For what more seems to be said here than just that the power of God is such as cannot be hindered, so that he can do whatsoever he pleases?

But it is far otherwise. For what stronger reason can be given than when we are ordered to reflect who God is? How could he who is the Judge of the world commit any unrighteousness? If it properly belongs to the nature of God to do judgment, he must naturally love justice and abhor injustice. Wherefore, the Apostle did not, as if he had been caught in a difficulty, have recourse to evasion; he only intimated that the procedure of divine justice is too high to be scanned by human measure, or comprehended by the feebleness of human intellect.

The Apostle, indeed, confesses that in the divine judgments there is a depth in which all the minds of men must be engulfed if they attempt to penetrate into it. But he also shows how unbecoming it is to reduce the works of God to such a law as that we can presume to condemn them the moment they accord not with our reason. There is a well-known saying of Solomon, (which, however, few properly understand,) "The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool and rewardeth transgressors," (Prov. 26: 10.) For he is speaking of the greatness of God, whose pleasure it is to inflict punishment on fools and transgressors though he is not pleased to bestow his Spirit upon them. It is a monstrous infatuation in men to seek to subject that which has no bounds to the little measure of their reason.

Paul gives the name of elect to the angels who maintained their integrity. If their steadfastness was owing to the good pleasure of God, the revolt of the others proves that they were abandoned. Of this no other cause can be adduced than reprobation, which is hidden in the secret counsel (emphasis added) of God.

http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/8_ch14.htm

We are, indeed, born into a world of sin and death, and we cannot have too deep a sense of the guilt of sin, especially our own; and, as members of the human family, we should feel the overwhelming weight of the sin and guilt of the whole race, as our Saviour did when he died on the cross. But we are also born into an economy of righteousness and life, and we cannot have too high a sense of God’s saving grace which passeth knowledge. As soon as we enter into the world we are met with the invitation, "Suffer little children to come unto me."

The redemption of the race is as much an accomplished fact as the fall of the race, and it alone can answer the question, why God permitted or caused the fall. Where sin has abounded, grace has abounded not less, but much more.

Calvinism has the advantage of logical compactness, consistency, and completeness. Admitting its premises, it is difficult to escape its conclusions. A system can only be overthrown by a system. It requires a theological genius of the order of Augustin and Calvin, who shall rise above the antagonism of divine sovereignty and human freedom, and shall lead us to a system built upon the rock of the historic Christ, and inspired from beginning to end with the love of God to all mankind.

The difference between Calvinism and non-Calvinism (Arminianism, Wesleyianism, Baptists) is that there theology, the non-Calvinists, (as regarding individual salvation) is based on the revealed will of God.

Calvinism view of individual salvation is based on a mysterious will of God.

A mysterous will that contradicts what God reveals about Himself in Scripture.

Luke, Come to the dark side!

88 posted on 08/02/2003 12:51:48 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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