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To: xzins; Dr. Eckleburg; nobdysfool; drstevej
Oh my...it appears this conversation has moved rather quickly while my back was turned:)

But HOW, at this point in time, could he have to still believe, IF it is true that an unregenerate man cannot even SEE the kingdom of God?

Because there is a logical difference between regeneration and faith. Regeneration is the renewing of the heart...the spiritual rebirth of the individual. Faith is a response by that heart through that will. Dead men don't respond to much. The Calvinist view is regeneration -> faith. They are logically separate events. As such, it is entirely possible that the man was regenerated, and as such saw the kingdom and asked how one could be saved (which itself is a response of faith, for the unregenerate has no interest in being saved). Such a response is the natural response of the reborn to the Gospel/Kingdom.

Where the Calvinist has the biggest issue with the Arminian "prevenient grace" is its supposed univeral application. Faith is the natural response of the regenerate heart to the Word. It is the perfect cooperation of the Second and Third Persons of the Trinity in fulfilling the decree of the First. When one says that this grace is universally applied, the only possibilities are that all men come to faith, or that the Son and the Spirit are unable to bring about that which has been decreed by the Father. For man to reject the Gospel in such a condition (regenerate) he would quite simply have to act contrary to his nature.

These stories are changing everything I had been thinking. There is no way around it. In this story convicting, prevenient grace PRECEDES believing and salvation, and, therefore, regeneration. It's obvious, plain common sense.

Ahh...I see it. You are defining regeneration as something different from prevenient grace. We define it as the same thing (though disagreeing on both its extent and result). So to us you have a Catch-22 because one has to be regenerate in order to believe in order to be saved in order to be regenerated.

You have misunderstood the logical order of salvation that Calvinists hold. It seems our focus should once again return to regeneration/"prevenient grace" and how it all factors in.

I indeed do think this will change the way you've been thinking:)

501 posted on 12/09/2003 8:50:43 AM PST by Frumanchu (mene mene tekel upharsin)
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To: Frumanchu
I understand calvinists to believe that all of the following are simultaneous BUT arranged in a logical order: total depraved human is acted upon by God unto his regeneration, faith, salvation.

Prior to regeneration the human is totally depraved and absolutely unable to do anything at all or think anything at all that is not vile and sinful.

In this instance, the Jailer is not yet saved. Nor has he yet believed. This is evident because Paul tells him "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL BE saved." In other words, believer precedes salvation.

But this man hasn't even believed yet. Nonetheless, he asks a very holy and proper question, "What must I do to be saved?"

Paul tells him to believe.

That is the sequence in the story.
502 posted on 12/09/2003 9:14:20 AM PST by xzins (Proud to be Army!)
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