The Meaning of 'foreknew' in Romans 8:29

The Five Points of Calvinism: Defined, Defended, Documented | 1963 | David N. Steele/Curtis C. Thomas

[RnMomof7]

With respect to faith, I've found it much simpler than the choice to remain a slave to sin. The work of salvation is still all attributed to God, without forcing more demands upon salvation than simple faith.

How nice that you give God some credit , I am sure he is happy

[RnMomof7]

Great post!

[xzins]

You're up awful late. Get a job on the 3rd shift? :>P

In any case, the notion that God can make decisions now is sometimes ignored.

No one said God didn't make decisions in the past according to a human perspective. All your verses suggest that God has made decisions in the past.

The point is that God still makes decisions.

The point is that God is OUTSIDE of time. You want verses on that, or are you convinced that God is not bound by time?

[Cvengr]

Thank you for your patience and dedicated effort to communicate your understanding of Scripture.

I will likewise afford some dedicated effort in reviewing the Scripture with respect to the particular argument.

I have studied these passages before, although I don't share the same immediate conclusion that the initial faith isn't possible from man who has not yet been reborn.

But it is fair for me to go back and review them to understand if I am in error or if their is some confusion in the tense of the passages being used to form the argument against initial faith.

I'll try to post back my understanding and other reinforcing doctrine as applicable in short order.

God Bless and Merry Christmas.

[RnMomof7]

You're up awful late. Get a job on the 3rd shift? :>P

You know after 10 years of nightshift I can not shake ths late night thing

In any case, the notion that God can make decisions now is sometimes ignored.

God is God and he can make decisions any time he pleases..but the history of this earth and its people are set ..that is what the word of God says.

No one said God didn't make decisions in the past according to a human perspective. All your verses suggest that God has made decisions in the past.

The bible is written for men. God speaks to us in language we can understand. He is talking to us in mans time not Gods. He is telling us that he counted the cost before he created the earth . He ordained all the events of the earth including the cross and our salvation before any of us existed..that is what the bible says Steve.That is a great assurance..we know He will not change his mind about saving us or the method of salvation . We know we can trust His promises because he is unchanging . If we held a doctrine like the LDS that God is always changing his mind or making new plans ..you could have no faith in Him or his plan.

He spoke to us in our time to assure us

The point is that God still makes decisions.

Not about this earth or His people or history

He is the God that KNOWS the end from the beginning

The point is that God is OUTSIDE of time. You want verses on that, or are you convinced that God is not bound by time?

I want verses that confirm your speculation that God is not bound by his word to us ..that he changes His mind about who He will save and who he will damn ..

[xzins]

I want verses that confirm your speculation that God is not bound by his word to us ..that he changes His mind about who He will save and who he will damn ..

If you want verses like that then you are asking the wrong questions.

[Cvengr]

Consider Saul and the witch of Endor. Saul inquired regarding his fate in battle the next day and he was told that since he had resorted to conjuring the dead, it had been decided that day he would perish in battle the following day.

There are other passages where Christ definitely used language respecting the volition of those he was speaking, posing conditionals and telling of consequents which would have happened otherwise had other paths been followed. Their meanings definitely reflect that history may have been altered based upon our decisions, actions and inactions.

I consider these examples to not contradict God's omniscience, but rather our perception of His all-knowing nature might not be as implicit has we sometimes make it.

My gut feeling is that there are a lot of contrived injustices in the world which will never be made equitable, simply because both sides are corrupt and in perfect justice, neither will benefit. If one is out of fellowship with God, there's a lot of injustice going on, which might not ever be recognized as worthy any judicial amends.

BTW, somebody was asking the other day about the lineage of Christ as recorded in the Gospels and noted the number of generations not matching the actual kings in Jewish history,...I heard one theory recently that in God's lineages, he is only considering the generations of Jewish ancestry with salvation,...thereby accounting for 3 missing generations in the geneology. I remember a similar argument about 10 years ago, but had forgotten it.

[Cvengr]

God is still given all the credit of salvation. Emotion isn't involved.

[Cvengr]

The topic of God's omniscience isn't so simple. Consider Christ and His selection of disciples. He picked Judas.

It also isn't for the Son to know the time or hour of the second coming.

Christ marveled at the faith of the Roman Centurion who didn't need Christ to accompany him, but merely acted on obedience.

[Cvengr]

Surely you have met at least one Calvinist who at one time in their lives was unregenerate. I know many believers who exercised faith before they ever recognized any rebirth of their spirit.

I also know many unbelievers who fail to exercise any type of faith which I would identify with a saving faith and many who are so wretched as beyond any comprehension I might gain.

I've read Romans about 10 times and individual chapters more frequently, as well as a number of commentaries, but by no means do I consider faith to be impossible for one who has not yet come to Christ.

The passages also refer to a natural man, in comparison to the believer so as to help describe things of the spirit. That doesn't mean unbelievers can't become believers nor that the efficacious grace doesn't happen after an initial faith of the unregenerate man, but after a common grace of the call of the Father.

[P-Marlowe]

1) If God cannot make decisions NOW then he is not God.

2) If God makes decisions NOW, then by virtue of his infinitely omnipresent nature, he made those decisions before the foundation of the earth.

[nobdysfool]

Consider Christ and His selection of disciples. He picked Judas.

Are we to infer from this statement that you believe that Jesus didn't know that Judas would betray Him? Or that Jesus only became aware of Judas' potential for betrayal AFTER Jesus had chosen him? That would be a pretty unorthodox and creative reading of scripture.

Christ marveled at the faith of the Roman Centurion who didn't need Christ to accompany him, but merely acted on obedience.

The Centurion demonstrated an understanding of authority and rank. Also, the Centurion demonstrated that he had at least a rudimentary knowledge of spiritual things, because he recognized that Jesus spoke with authority, which gave him hope that Jesus could speak the word and heal. I would say that if the disciples had questioned why Jesus performed a miracle for a Gentile, He would have said nearly the same as He said when questioned why the blind man He healed was born blind: That the Glory of God might be manifested in him. How? By healing him. Everything that Jesus did, everything that happened to Him and the disciples, was for an example to us.

[xzins]

Good morning Michael. The best friend at my wedding nearly 30 years ago was a Townsend.

I did not follow your logic about the doctrine of the Trinity contradicting election based on God's foreknowledge.

However, you are called to testify to this: Does God possess total, absolute Knowledge?

Does God possess total, absolute Power?

Does God possess total, absolute Presence?

What do you say to each of these questions?

[nobdysfool]

Surely you have met at least one Calvinist who at one time in their lives was unregenerate. I know many believers who exercised faith before they ever recognized any rebirth of their spirit.

EVERY Christian was at one time unregenerate. We all are saved in time. Our Election was before the foundation of the world, but it is manifested IN time, not outside of time. The faith we're talking about is saving faith, not the faith that every person has with regard to the rising of the sun, gravity, etc. Saving faith is a gift of God. The natural faith that man possesses is just that: natural faith. It proceeds from a corrupt and depraved heart, and therefore cannot be saving faith. No bad tree can bring forth good fruit, neither can a bad well produce good water. The faith that the natural unregenerate man produces is not capable of obtaining salvation, in fact it is a stench in God's nostrils, coming as it does from a fallen, corrupt, and depraved heart. The depravity of man prevents him from doing, saying, or producing anything of value toward salvation. That includes his natural faith.

Salvation is OF GOD. It originates in God, it proceeds from God, and it is initiated by God, and completed by God. Man makes no active contribution to his salvation, he brings nothing of any value into the process. Man is the recipient of salvation. You are arguing for man's faith as being the initial step in the process. It is God who initiates the process in those whom He has chosen.

[P-Marlowe]

Is God the "I AM?"

Or is God the "I DID"?

[xzins]

Maybe He's the (skit) ~shrug~ "I dunno."

[Frumanchu]

1) If God cannot make decisions NOW then he is not God.

I don't think any of us is trying to say that God cannot make decisions. But decisions (choices) are made in light of information/knowledge. So to say that God "changes His mind" or makes a different decision is to imply that He either a)did not possess certain knowledge at the time of the original decision, or b)was wrong.

2) If God makes decisions NOW, then by virtue of his infinitely omnipresent nature, he made those decisions before the foundation of the earth.

There is a problem here. While in eternity there is no time, there is still logical order. Decrees/decisions/actions/etc. still maintain a logical order, they simply exist without respect to time. When you say that God simultaneously makes a decision now (within creation/time) and before the foundation of the earth (logically preceding creation/time) you are in essense saying that He made the decision before He made the decision. The only means by which you can hold to your assertion is in keeping with xzins' notion that God foreknows His own decisions/actions within time. All time, including God's interation with it, is known from the start. Within time there is the perception of reaction, but in the larger scope of God's infinite and eternal omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence, such actions are actually proactive by virtue of God's ordination of the circumstance.