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To: As you well know...
I appreciate your response.

***Jurgens notes the Greek word used for "give thanks" could also be translated "celebrate the Eucharist." My Douai Rheims notes throughtout the New Testament that "breaking bread" was shorthand for celebrate the Eucharist***

Eucharisto does mean to give thanks and is a term associated with observing the ordinance instituted by Christ at the Last Supper.

My point was the passage from the Didache focuses on the taking of the cup and the bread wihout reference to the real presence. I don't expect them to use the term "tanssubstantiation" but the absence of language indicating transubstantiation is at least curious.

Said another way, as a Protestant Pastor I could use these very words in celebration of the Lord's Supper whereas I think my RC friends would want language more explicitly affirming the real presence.
232 posted on 07/18/2003 4:39:33 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej; jmj
This is a long thread and I haven't read it all. I don't think this whole section from the Didache was quoted:

"On the Lord's own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks; but first confess your sins, so that your sacrifice may be pure. However, no one quarreling with his brother may join your meeting until they are reconciled; your sacrifice must not be defiled. For here we have the saying of the Lord: 'In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice; for I am a mighty King, says the Lord; and my name spreads terror among the nations."

Even though "do not give That which is sacred to the dogs" is not quoted in the Mass, I think (and many have taught)that it indicates the Real Presence. I certainly don't see anything here which denies the Real Presence.
233 posted on 07/18/2003 5:48:59 AM PDT by old and tired
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To: drstevej
All that follows is from the following page http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html

St. Ignatius became the third bishop of Antioch, succeeding St. Evodius, who was the immediate successor of St. Peter. He heard St. John preach when he was a boy and knew St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna. Seven of his letters written to various Christian communities have been preserved. Eventually, he received the martyr's crown as he was thrown to wild beasts in the arena.

"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."

"Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.

"Come together in common, one and all without exception in charity, in one faith and in one Jesus Christ, who is of the race of David according to the flesh, the son of man, and the Son of God, so that with undivided mind you may obey the bishop and the priests, and break one Bread which is the medicine of immortality and the antidote against death, enabling us to live forever in Jesus Christ."

-"Letter to the Ephesians", paragraph 20, c. 80-110 A.D.

"I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed."

-"Letter to the Romans", paragraph 7, circa 80-110 A.D.

"Take care, then who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. And those who repent and come to the unity of the Church - they too shall be of God, and will be living according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons."

-Epistle to the Philadelphians, 3:2-4:1, 110 A.D.

234 posted on 07/18/2003 5:51:31 AM PDT by old and tired
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To: drstevej
Oh well, Catholics don't think it curious. But, even were I raised in another tradition, I don't think I'd expect to read every reference to "breaking the bread" fleshed out (so to speak) as a means of cathechetical instruction.

It was written to an audience of Catholic by Catholics with the knowledge of the Real Presence assumed.

264 posted on 07/18/2003 3:09:11 PM PDT by As you well know...
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