The Brown Scapular (Our Lady of Mt. Carmel)

Association of Marian Helpers (Marians of the Immaculate Conception) | 1991 | Rt. Rev. Charles A. Klauder

[RnMomof7]

    Mat 12:46   While he yet talked to the people, behold, [his] mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.      Mat 12:47   Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.      Mat 12:48   But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?      Mat 12:49   And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!      Mat 12:50   For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

I think that Jesus loved his mom. But like all of us she needed Him as her savior. She was after all a human creation of God as are all fallen men

To put that in perspective

    Mat 12:46   While he yet talked to the people, behold, [his] mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

     Mat 12:47   Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.   

  Mat 12:48   But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?   

  Mat 12:49   And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

     Mat 12:50   For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

[sinkspur]

Can you understand that to protestants this sounds like Mary is the door not Christ.

Yes. But you guys jettisoned Marian theology, so you can't claim now that she's anything but just Christ's Mother.

For me, she's an intercessor with Christ. "Son, behold your Mother. Mother, behold your Son."

Anyway, Marian devotion is not forced on any Catholic, and they can take it or leave it.

I leave most of it, but take this one.

[drstevej]

***The wise men found Him with Mary his Mother.***

YES

***She is to be honored as He honored her.***

YES

But Marian aparitions and instructions to wear a piece of brown cloth to escape eternal fire is honoring non-biblical tradition that conveys false theology.

Adding a papal indulgence for kissing the cloth compounds the error.

If the Roman Catholic believes this aparition, pronouncement and indulgence are entirely valid, why do so few RCs comply with their Mother? Catholic practice would argue against their believing this aparition, promise to be true. It also indicates their scepticism at the papal indulgence attached to kissing the cloth.

I will fully honor the Mary of Holy Scripture for her piety, character and ministry on earth. Her heavenly activities are IMO entirely speculative. Many of the Marian traditions IMO diminish the work of her Son and therefore dishonor Him and her.

I do appreciate your taking the time to interact with me. Thanks.

[RnMomof7]

Yes. But you guys jettisoned Marian theology, so you can't claim now that she's anything but just Christ's Mother.

Well I do not think that is a small thing to be the mother of Christ.That is more than any woman could desire .

For me, she's an intercessor with Christ. "Son, behold your Mother. Mother, behold your Son."

Sink that scripture says nothing about intercession , but i do know that is a large part of the Catholic theology. It is one that of course that Protestants do not share

Anyway, Marian devotion is not forced on any Catholic, and they can take it or leave it.

I also know that to be true. The problem with the scapula theology to me is it make Mary , not Jesus the Savior .

Do you agree with the belief that it is mary that dispenses grace?

[RnMomof7]

I don't see it that way. Christ IS God, so Mary intercedes to God the father, son, and Holy Spirit.

I understand the Catholic teachings on the intercession Sandy. It is just the brown scapula takes it too a new level . It says that the cloth and devotion to Mary replace Jesus as the judge of your soul. It makes repentance and believing in Christ unnecessary .

It makes Mary your benefactor and Judge and the blood of Christ of no effect

I have to say I was a bit surprised by the article. I was "enrolled" in the brown scapula at my first communion, with the promise that never taking it off guaranteed me heaven. I thought that the church had moved beyond that . I am sad it has not

[drstevej]

***Steve, I know that devotion to Mary is hard for Protestants to connect with. But as a Catholic, it is part and parcel of our Catholic tradition, and I am totally at ease with it***

Exactly, it is a Bible vs tradition issue at it's essence.

***As I said before, private devotions, revelations, and apparations are not required beliefs.***

Here I struggle. I understand the notion of "private devotion" (eg praying the rosary). But the statement/promise I quoted AND the linking of an indulgence with kissing the scapula go beyond private devotion.

If Mary did make that promise, why don't all Catholics follow her wishes? If she did not, or it is uncertain... upon waht basis is a pope declaring an indulgence for kissing the scapular.

It is the content -- a promise to protect from eternal flames which makes this unlike saying the rosary.

If you believe Mary said this why wouldn't you wear the scapula?

***It tells me of someone with a deep commitment to their faith and a devotion to our Blessed Mother.***

Yes, but it is more than that according to the lead article of the thread.

I am not picking on you or RCs. I am truly baffled even when trying to see this from the RC prospective.

[drstevej]

And for me I have the finished work on the cross of a Savior who is the author and perfector of my faith. He ever lives to intercede for me.


Jude 24 -- Now unto HIM (caps mine, HIM not HER) that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

[Codie]

I thought that the church had moved beyond that.

What direction would you like to see the Church move?

[american colleen]

Kind of a hit and run as I am busy doing all the zillions of things you do on a Saturday with the kids home and my husband around...

The following captures the essence of the Blessed Virgin, for me, anyway!

The Wedding at Cana

It is the opinion of many Catholic theologians that Jesus Christ raised the legal contract of marriage to the diginity of a sacrament at the Wedding at Cana. John 2:1 shows that the Blessed Virgin Mary, "the Mother of Jesus" was present. Since Joseph is not mentioned here, or at any other succeeding time in the Gospel, Most theologians agree that the Blessed Virgin Mary was probably a widow at the Wedding.

From Luke 2:32 we know that the Blessed Virgin Mary knew of the Divine Power of her Son Jesus Christ. Being with him, she knew it was time for him to make himself known to the world. She played her part in the simple, humble observation, "They have no wine." (John 2:2) Most of the early Fathers agree that she was motivated by charity and compassion for the newlywed couple.

[drstevej]

***Amen. It is the same for me.***

On my death bed, Lord willing, I will exclaim "Thank you Jesus" not "Pray for me Mary."

Enjoy your time with the family. You are a truly kind person and a gracious "debater" here on FR. I always enjoy the interaction.

[drstevej]

I was confused indeed, but the kind words were directed to you. However, the same is true of AC.

[american colleen]

You guys are both always very kind and gracious! I fall short - just did last week and I can point you to the post, seriously. And making matters worse, the person I was somewhat uncharitable to answered me charitably and with a sense of humor!

I pray to Jesus Christ directly all the time and in fact, most of the time. But I am mindful that as a Catholic, I believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary is my mother in heaven. Not the same, or even on par with our Saviour or our Father, but our mother, nevertheless.

"Behold, your mother!"