[drstevej]

My above post is not to start an argument, but it is an honest reaction to reading the testimony. I have heard similar ones from Mormons, New Agers, etc. They have a profound experience which causes them to reallign doctrine to fit.

The real issue is whether the doctrine is true, not how stong the experience is. I don't intend to debate doctrine here but I did want to make an obesrvation on the process.

[wideawake]

A few observations:

(1) She was apparently drawn to investigate Catholicism by reading the Confession of St. Patrick and agreeing with the doctrine he expressed therein.

It seems as if intellectual curiosity preceded emotion in this case.If her conversion was a purely emotional one based on "happy warm fuzzies", then it wouldn't really have been sustainable in the face of her mother's melodrama.

(3) She seems to have been raised in a home (and I in fact know she was raised in a home) where fairly sophisticated doctrinal discourse was a part of her upbringing.

She had a well-articulated doctrinal background and she wouldn't be able to consider Catholicism without having strong doctrinal conviction.

[american colleen]

The real issue is whether the doctrine is true, not how stong the experience is.

I dunno... thinking of St. Paul here. Had the experience and then learned the doctrine.

[sitetest]

Dear drstevej,

Yes, I understand exactly what you're saying. Folks have an experience, and they let it guide them as to what they will believe, how they will think, etc.

I remember one story like this. Completely shocking. This fellow named Saul was on his way to Damascus...


;-)


sitetest

[Hermann the Cherusker]

I'd agree with that partially. Generally, the reaction experience starts from a linch-pin doctrine suddenly being overturned in your mind by a flash of truth. Its like someone kicks your legs out from under you. In my case, it was a sudden blinding understanding of the Immaculate Conception and then a realization that Catholic Mariology in general was true because of a few simple words in a talk from a Priest about Genesis and the Fall.

After the shock of this sudden awakening wore off, a second one came along a few days later, with me realizing that with True Faith, I now had the power to conquer my major sins. So I stopped, cold turkey, the profanity, lies, and lust, I had been a slave to before.

"Who by faith conquered kingdoms, wrought justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, recovered strength from weakness, became valiant in battle, put to flight the armies of foreigners." (Hewbrews 11.33-34)

[ArrogantBustard]

The real issue is whether the doctrine is true

Interesting you should say that. When the abuse scandal broke last year, we (Catholics) were often asked why we didn't just up and leave... the answer is, of course, that "the real issue is whether the doctrine is true", not whether some of the ministers are first-class dirtbags.

More to the point, here, finally understanding some truth (or Truth) can be a profound, emotional experience. In my former life as a teacher, I could always see, in their facial expressions, when my students finally understood what I was getting at. But the point was not to give them all a bunch of warm fuzzies; it was to impart understanding of a certain set of knowledge.

[nickcarraway]

If you read the whole story that experience comes only after an in depth study of doctrine.

[mdmathis6]

I caught on to your emphasis on the experiential...indeed other converts to "other" religions report the same type of reaction. Paul state that "We know in part and believe in part..." True faith involves a balance of intellectual thought based on an inner conviction of truth/faith. That is why I have trouble with "experiences" alone as a indicator of truth.

Scientists can stimulate areas of the brain to simulate the presence of the divine....I HAVE NO DOUBT evil forces can too. That is why the ultimate test of truth is found in 1 John chapter 1 where we are en joined to "test the spirits to see if they are of God. Any Spirit that confessess Christ as come in the Flesh, is of God, any spirit that confesses not that Christ is come in the flesh is not of God, but rather of Anti-Christ..."
I knew a Jewish couple who came out of the Presbyterian faith and were much more radical than most Jews who were Jews from generations back(though this couple was more in the Liberal reformed jewish movement). They spoke of this "experience" they shared upon conversion.
Contrast experienced based conversions with what CS Lewis stated of his own conversion..."I was lead to Christ based on the weight of the evidence". He spoke of being almost "forced" to confront the evidence honestly with integrity, and to base his new life based on that honesty appraisal of Christianity. He spoke of being angry about it, not wanting to confront his own pride and sin. The emotions he experienced were the death of his pride and of his humilation before God, the sweeter emotions of grace and for-giveness came later. Now this can be similarly compared with the "conversion" the woman had, in that she was faced with her own stereo-types of Catholics in general, but the difference is CS Lewis did not become a Catholic after his conversion...though I believe he did become the greatest apologist for Christ, well since Paul!


I suspect the woman became more of a Christian and Less of a Catholic, after her "conversion" judging from the pride she stated she had in dealing with Catholics.

The true Church of Christ is the totality of Spirit filled, blood washed believers that have existed, do and will exist across time and space, becoming a bulwark against the dimension of hell, "so the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it". This goes back to Adam and Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, through the little 6 year old girl that shyly asked Christ to be her Savior while praying one night at her bedside(my daughter).

It never was about one organization on the Tiber, or a Sothern Baptist Convention, or about a number of so called "true faiths". It was about a supra-temporal reality in the world that "tamps" down evil, keeping a check on it , until God in the end removes the restraints against evil in order for evil to be destroyed. It is an intellectual concept true...but in my "experiential" view of it, I am filled with AWE and WONDER of God's genius!