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To: MarMema; RnMomof7; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Dr. Eckleburg
An excellent article. As long as it is, I found myself wishing for more details from this excellent writer.

One can observe a continuity from the earliest patriarchs of the other four sees toward the dictatorial claims of the first Roman patriarch who claimed any sort of monarchical authority over them. They reacted with a certain amusement and contempt toward the attempted usurpation of power by the first Roman 'pope'. And this has held true ever since. Indeed, one wonders how the Latin popes had the nerve to press such claims.

For many centuries, the self-annointed Roman pope openly wielded and claimed such power only within his own domains, domains where were won and held by the secular power of the Roman state. Only the discretion in pressing the claims of authority over all Christendom by the Roman popes allowed any continuity of communion between East and West. It was only when the schism became open that the Latin pope expanded his dictatorial claims publicly and aggressively.

Of course, I do have a considerable sympathy for the Eastern position on the filioque. For me, it is simply a matter that the Father is the source of all.

I think our Roman friends don't worry much about being correct theologically, in this or in other matters. After all, they only need to get one pope to pronounce upon a matter and it becomes unassailable. They were wrong to magnify their false doctrine of filioque in their (correct) suppression with the Arian heretics of Spain. However, the prouncement of filioque was never previously required to deal with the heresy of Arianism so it was not vital on that occasion either. Instead, a local doctrinal pronouncement became the infallible doctrine of the entire Western church.

Ignorance and political expediency were the authors of the filioque. The East was entirely correct to reject it. The Latin church continues to press unscriptural and unhistoric claims, building upon the cracked foundation of the authority of Rome's 'pope'. Among many other unscriptural claims, we see the rise of Mary as a Co-Redemptrix, another Roman imposition of a barrier to a personal relationship with God. In the Roman tradition, one cannot reach God without the intervention of the pope and his minions. Soon, Mary will also be interposed between the believer and Christ. It's quite a gauntlet that the Roman believer must run before he has contact with Christ. The misfortune here is that the Roman believer is shorn of his birthright, namely, his personal access to our Saviour without the trappings of popes and priests and Mary.
35 posted on 07/07/2003 6:29:10 AM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: George W. Bush
Indeed, one wonders how the Latin popes had the nerve to press such claims.

Gosh, I don't know. Maybe because they held the sucession of St. Peter?

I think our Roman friends don't worry much about being correct theologically, in this or in other matters.

A nice broadbrush assertion.

After all, they only need to get one pope to pronounce upon a matter and it becomes unassailable. They were wrong to magnify their false doctrine of filioque in their (correct) suppression with the Arian heretics of Spain. However, the prouncement of filioque was never previously required to deal with the heresy of Arianism so it was not vital on that occasion either. Instead, a local doctrinal pronouncement became the infallible doctrine of the entire Western church.

Rather, it was something the whole western Church and the eastern Church as well had taught from the beginning, although with different formulas - Latin "Father and the Son", Greek "Father through the Son". No one ever said "Father alone not the Son" until Patriarch St. Photius.

The list of Western Fathers pronouncing on the subject in favor of the filioque doctrine include St. Hilary of Poitiers, St. Augustine of Hippo, St. Ambrose, Pope St. Leo the Great, Pope St. Gregory the Great, Pope St. Martin I, and many others.

41 posted on 07/07/2003 8:21:14 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: George W. Bush; MarMema; TexConfederate1861; Destro
Among many other unscriptural claims, we see the rise of Mary as a Co-Redemptrix, another Roman imposition of a barrier to a personal relationship with God. In the Roman tradition, one cannot reach God without the intervention of the pope and his minions. Soon, Mary will also be interposed between the believer and Christ. It's quite a gauntlet that the Roman believer must run before he has contact with Christ. The misfortune here is that the Roman believer is shorn of his birthright, namely, his personal access to our Saviour without the trappings of popes and priests and Mary.

Rather, the Pope, Patriarchs, Bishops, Priests, Deacons and Blessed Mary all serve as means to the grace Christ has left at their disposal as its stewards, Blessed Mary preeminently. Ephesians 3.2 has St. Paul claiming "the stewardship of God's grace" to be given to the Corinthians. As far as Blessed Mary goes, the Church has always preached this necessity of recourse to her for grace. She sings it in her Liturgy: "Through the prayers, of the Mother of God, O Savior, save us!"

"The Lord, the apostles and the prophets have taught us that we must venerate in the first place the Holy Mother of God, who is above all the heavenly powers ... If anyone does not confess that the holy, ever-virgin Mary, really and truly the Mother of God, is higher than all creatures visible and invisible, and does not implore, with a sincere faith, her intercession, given her powerful access to our God born of her, let him be anathema." (Second Council of Nicea, Session IV, AD 787)

"Mary is the cause of what had gone before her, the pioneer of what has come after her; she distributes eternal goods ... She is the glory of earth, the joy of heaven, the ornament of all creation. She is the principle, the source, the root of ineffable good things. She is the summit and the fulfillment of all that is holy. (St. Gregory Palamas, In Annunt., PG 151, 177B)

"No divine gift can reach either angels or men, save through her mediation. As one cannot enjoy the light of a lamp ... save through the medium of this lamp, so every movement towards God, every impulse towards good coming from him is unrealizable save through the mediation of the Virgin. She does not cease to spread benefits on all creatures ..." (St. Gregory Palamas, PG 151, 472A)

42 posted on 07/07/2003 8:21:55 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker (Holy Mother of God, save us.)
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