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To: MarMema
I think we need to be careful about making a 4th member of the Holy Trinity as well.

I certainly was not suggesting that the Orthodox have done so. But it is quite clear what Rome has done and what more Rome plans to do.
  • Alfonsus de Liguori (1696-1787) was a principal proponent of the Marianist Movement, which glorifies Mary. He wrote a book entitled The Glories of Mary which is famous, influential and widely read. In this book, de Liguori says that Mary was given rulership over one half of the kingdom of God; Mary rules over the kingdom of mercy and Jesus rules over the kingdom of justice. De Liguori said that people should pray to Mary as a mediator and look to her as an object of trust for answered prayer. The book even says that there is no salvation outside of Mary. Some people suggest that these views are extreme and not representative of Catholic Church teaching. However, instead of silencing de Liguori as a heretic, the Catholic Church canonized him as a saint and declared him to be a “doctor of the Church” (a person whose teachings carry weight and authority). Furthermore, his book is openly and officially promoted by the Catholic Church, and his teachings have influenced popes. [William Webster, The Church of Rome at the Bar of History, page 87]
  • Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that “[O]ne can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind.” [In the Encyclical Intersodalicia (1918). Quoted in Donald G. Bloesch, Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Vol. 1, page 196].
  • Pope Pius IX said, “Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her.” [In the Encyclical of February 2, 1849. Quoted in Donald G. Bloesch, Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Vol. 1, page 196]
But what about the Assumption of Mary? Where did this Roman doctrine originate historically and what position(s) has Rome held upon the Assumption of Mary?
The Assumption of Mary was officially declared to be a dogma of the Roman Catholic faith in 1950. This means that every Roman Catholic is required to believe this doctrine without questioning it. However, as we will see, the teaching of the Assumption originated with heretical writings which were officially condemned by the early Church. In 495 A.D., Pope Gelasius issued a decree which rejected this teaching as heresy and its proponents as heretics. In the sixth century, Pope Hormisdas also condemned as heretics those authors who taught the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. The early Church clearly considered the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary to be a heresy worthy of condemnation. Here we have “infallible” popes declaring something to be a heresy. Then in 1950, Pope Pius XII, another “infallible” pope, declared it to be official Roman Catholic doctrine. [William Webster, pages 81-85]
So, the early infallible popes absolutely and officially declared any belief in the Assumption of Mary to be a heresy. And then in 1950, another infallible pope declared it was heresy not to believe in the Assumption of Mary, a doctrine which has been upheld by the subsequent infallible popes including the current one. As is often the case, a pope's claims to infallibility founder upon their own proclamations of doctrine which contradict their infallible predecessors.

But to Rome, even Mary is not the complete power in the salvation of men. Look at this statement from an encyclical published just this year [Ecclesia de Ecuharista]:
“Thus the priest may, in a certain manner, be called the creator of his Creator, since by saying the words of the consecration, he creates, as it were, Jesus in the sacrament, by giving him a sacramental existence, and produces him as a victim to be offered to the eternal Father. As in creating the world it was sufficient for God to have said, Let it be made, and it was created. He spake, and they were made, so it is sufficient for the priest to say, ‘Hoc est corpus meum,’ and behold the bread is no longer bread, but the body of Jesus Christ. ‘The power of the priest,’ says St. Bernadine of Sienna, ‘is the power of the divine person; for the transubstantiation of the bread requires as much power as the creation of the world’.”

“With regard to the mystic body of Christ, that is, all the faithful, the priest has the power of the keys, or the power of delivering sinners from hell, of making them worthy of paradise, and of changing them from the slaves of Satan into the children of God. And God himself is obliged to abide by the judgment of his priests, and either not to pardon or to pardon, according as they refuse or give absolution, provided the penitent is capable of it.”
In this statement, we see that God has indeed become the slave of the Roman church. Only Mary counts. This is why they pray to Mary ten times for each time they pray to God.

It's a horrible mockery of the ancient faith. The Orthodox are quite prudent in keeping their distance from Rome.
125 posted on 07/08/2003 6:04:44 AM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: George W. Bush
Alfonsus de Liguori (1696-1787) was a principal proponent of the Marianist Movement, which glorifies Mary. He wrote a book entitled The Glories of Mary which is famous, influential and widely read. In this book, de Liguori says that Mary was given rulership over one half of the kingdom of God; Mary rules over the kingdom of mercy and Jesus rules over the kingdom of justice. De Liguori said that people should pray to Mary as a mediator and look to her as an object of trust for answered prayer. The book even says that there is no salvation outside of Mary. Some people suggest that these views are extreme and not representative of Catholic Church teaching. However, instead of silencing de Liguori as a heretic, the Catholic Church canonized him as a saint and declared him to be a “doctor of the Church” (a person whose teachings carry weight and authority). Furthermore, his book is openly and officially promoted by the Catholic Church, and his teachings have influenced popes. [William Webster, The Church of Rome at the Bar of History, page 87]

Incredible.! There is absolutely no foundation for this teaching..it might make an interesting movie however..

127 posted on 07/08/2003 6:41:21 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: George W. Bush; MarMema
Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that “[O]ne can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind.” [In the Encyclical Intersodalicia (1918). Quoted in Donald G. Bloesch, Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Vol. 1, page 196].

Pope Pius IX said, “Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her.” [In the Encyclical of February 2, 1849. Quoted in Donald G. Bloesch, Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Vol. 1, page 196]

These are great "excerpts" that take the quoted words completely out of context. When you feel like learning what we really believe, George, feel free to consult the original sources rather than Evangelical misrepresentations.

But what about the Assumption of Mary? Where did this Roman doctrine originate historically and what position(s) has Rome held upon the Assumption of Mary?

Last I checked, the Orthodox and Copts and Syrians also held to this belief, and had Churches named after the feast and icons painted of it.

In 495 A.D., Pope Gelasius issued a decree which rejected this teaching as heresy and its proponents as heretics. In the sixth century, Pope Hormisdas also condemned as heretics those authors who taught the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. The early Church clearly considered the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary to be a heresy worthy of condemnation.

The Popes condemned apocryphal works which distorted the truth. They never condemned the Assumption.

There is a very simple proof of the reality of the Assumption. The body and relics of Holy Mary are not to be found in any ancient Church, be it Roman Catholic, Eastern, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, or the Church of the East. The body of St. James is in Campostella in Spain. St. Peter is under his basillica in Rome. St. Thomas is in India. Etc., etc., etc. No one has ever at any time, anywhere, claimed to have the bodily relics of Blessed Mary, who has always been considered the greatest of the saints.

Another proof - the Coptic and Syraic Churches which broke off from what I will call the Orthodox Catholic Church after the Council of Chalcedon (AD 451) celebrate the Assumption liturgically. If the belief did not exist prior to that date, it seems incredible we would find them celebrating a feast from a Church they considered heretcal. In fact, the celebration of the feast can be shown to go back to the 4th Century in Antioch - prior to that, there simply are not written records on much, and so much from before then is lost.

This is why they pray to Mary ten times for each time they pray to God.

Only in the Holy Rosary. In the Holy Mass and the Breviary, the ratio is quite reversed.

What you've written is a wonderful exercise in Jungian distortion, and it happily has little to do with Catholic belief.

134 posted on 07/08/2003 8:24:20 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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