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Texas Pastor Removed Over Latin Masses
Seattle Catholic ^ | July 4, 2003 | Peter Miller

Posted on 07/04/2003 9:27:18 PM PDT by Land of the Irish

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To: Loyalist
In the face of recent events, if you defend the wrongdoing of the clergy, you defend the devil himself.

What wrongdoing!? All we have is an expression of concern. And how we have that is not documented. The author does not cite his source for that tidbit of information. Any wrongdoing is in your head. The paranoia and suspicion that attends your affiliations created the phantom wrongdoing. I'm not defending the clergy; I'm exposing mirages.

321 posted on 07/06/2003 7:46:35 PM PDT by St.Chuck
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To: St.Chuck
St. Jerome was, in a cold sweat: he had dreamed that Christ condemned him to hell for being more a Ciceronian than a Christian.

At Mass today the priest told us not to kneel, which surprised me, to say the least. Our parish is being painted and Mass is taking place in the basement and there are folding chairs instead of pews, of course.

When I got the bulletin, this is what it said:

LET'S NOT KNEEL FOR A WHILE
Obviously, while we are celebrating Mass in the hall and the main church is being painted we don't have kneelers.

A pastoral view says that we stand at the times when we knelt in normal days at Mass.

If standing on the concrete and tile floor is difficult because of injury or age please be seated.

An interesting background is that in 1970 and 1975 the Holy Father, Pope Paul VI, approved the new Roman Missal and stipulated that: "at every Mass the people should stand....from the pray over the gifts to the end of the Mass."

"They should kneel at the consecration unless prevented by the lack of space, the numbers of people present, or some other good reason."

A funny thing happened on the way to the United States. The Bishops of the United States chose to change this stipulation and keep to the traditional times of kneeling.

Many bishops in the United States are beginning to accept the "new" rules of standing.

A sidelight... in government, business and the military, if someone distinguished comes into a hall or room...everyone stands.

........

Am I being more of a Ciceronian than a Christian by being hurt and sort of offended that I cannot kneel during the Mass at the traditional times? I did kneel at the consecration (hadn't yet read the bulletin) and the priest told us (me and my kids and one other older woman) not to kneel. Even my kids were taken aback.

I value your opinion on this and also appreciate input from anyone else as I battle (internally) with things like this all the time. I don't want to be scrupulous but it hurts not to kneel, especially after receiving Communion.

322 posted on 07/06/2003 7:49:04 PM PDT by american colleen
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To: ultima ratio
If you think this was a sincere expression of concern for Fr. Z's mental health, you don't appreciate the depth of the animus against traditionalism in some quarters.

But I do appreciate the depth of animus against the bishops, I do appreciate the knee-jerk defense of anything remotely resembling traditional, and most importantly I do appreciate your distortions of facts to conform with pre-formed conclusions.

323 posted on 07/06/2003 7:58:01 PM PDT by St.Chuck
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To: american colleen
The new GIRM says to kneel.
324 posted on 07/06/2003 8:10:26 PM PDT by Desdemona
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To: ninenot
Some sort of haircloth, but no spankings/whippings.

More than haircloth. I've read that they wear some sort of spiked thing on one of their legs that causes pain.

325 posted on 07/06/2003 8:17:22 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: St.Chuck
What facts have I distorted? I must be pressing some pretty sensitive buttons for you to react so strongly. Clearly what I say is hitting home on some level--so you lash out defensively.
326 posted on 07/06/2003 8:22:12 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Desdemona
I'll have to look it up. I did notice that the priest left out what I think is important - after he quoted PPV1 writing that "at every Mass the people should stand... from the pray over the gifts to the end of the Mass" the priest put in a "period" and the document includes the line "except where noted below" (and goes on to say when to kneel - which is the traditional kneeling times) - so the priest is uninformed at best and duplicious at worst.

We also did this thing with "passing a basket" for the collection instead of using the regular baskets with handles and afterwards, the collection monies were placed at the foot of the altar instead of being kept "somewhere" during the Mass as had always been done. It was weird... never seen it done before except during some Protestant services. I didn't like it at all, but I wrestle with innovations with the Mass and sometimes I'm afraid I can't tell when something is important and when it is not important. My parish is very liberal and I feel very alienated a lot of times.

I found it more than ironic that one day when discussing the ICEL with the parish priest, he said we should pull away from Rome. And now here he is quoting a pope because it suits his purposes (whatever they are!).

327 posted on 07/06/2003 8:24:14 PM PDT by american colleen
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To: Desdemona
I notice that it specifically says "in the Dioceses of the United States." Is the norm in other parts of the world to remain standing?
328 posted on 07/06/2003 8:29:20 PM PDT by B Knotts
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To: ninenot

If one says the Novus Ordo in Latin, using Eucharistic Prayer I, and the confetior, using options allowed in the missal such as the celebration of the mass "ad orientum" aka facing away from the conregation, use only altar boys, and no Eucharistic ministers along with use of the communion rail, it will be hard for many people to tell these two masses apart.

Not many such masses in the US, but such examples are St Agnes in St Paul MN, Assumption Grotto in Detroit, St Joeseph in Toldeo Ohio, and I think even St John Canitus in Chicago Novus Ordo mass in Latin is celebrated in such a manner.
329 posted on 07/06/2003 8:30:38 PM PDT by JNB
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To: american colleen
also appreciate input from anyone else as I battle (internally) with things like this all the time. I don't want to be scrupulous but it hurts not to kneel, especially after receiving Communion.

Does it hurt, or do you feel like you're somehow dissing Jesus by not kneeling? I can understand why the priest would institute this; there's a pastoral reason to ask for folks to stand, or sit.

Offer up not kneeling; when you're back in the main Church, you can kneel again.

330 posted on 07/06/2003 8:31:10 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: ninenot
***SOME of our priests would stand in line for that treatment.***

Anyone who enjoys that task is unqualified!
331 posted on 07/06/2003 8:32:46 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: ultima ratio
If you won't reason with me, then be silent.

Reasoning with you has the same effect as silence.

But to consign me to hell fire because I disagree with you is rhetorical overkill.

I didn't consign you to hellfire. That is overkill. I suggested to you that you rethink the consequences of your reliance on rhetoric and ultimate reason. It is failing you. At least St. Jerome had the humility to doubt himself.

Nor do I lie. I give reasons for what I say and think.

Your claim, that the Real Presence is suppressed, no matter what evidence you produce is a lie. The catechism doesn't supress it. The magisterium doesn't suppress it. The pope, in his writings, doesn't suppress it. The rubrics of the mass doesn't suppress it. The GIRM doesn't suppress it. The widespread Eucharistic Adorations, Benedictions, Corpus Christi processions don't suppress it. I would say that your claim is false on it's face, and perhaps it would be charitable to attribute ignorance to your claim, but I don't regard you as ignorant. If you are not purposefully lieing, then you are just repeating others' lies. Does that make you blameless?

332 posted on 07/06/2003 8:39:31 PM PDT by St.Chuck
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To: sinkspur
"dissing Jesus" would be the more accurate, although I don't know if I would have worded it that way! I guess I take the "every knee shall bow" thing pretty seriously and I try to impart that to my kids.

I already do "offer up" a lot of different things... it took me a long time to get to that point. But I suspect the way the priest wants us to stand now is the way it will be in the future when the church has been painted and we are all back upstairs. Otherwise, why the lengthy blurb about it in the bulletin? He is a very liberal guy.

I think it's time to go elsewhere, at least for a while. I'm sure the priest won't miss us! ;-)

333 posted on 07/06/2003 8:41:40 PM PDT by american colleen
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To: american colleen
I think it's time to go elsewhere, at least for a while. I'm sure the priest won't miss us! ;-)

That's why God made cars.

334 posted on 07/06/2003 8:57:45 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: american colleen
***I did kneel at the consecration (hadn't yet read the bulletin) and the priest told us (me and my kids and one other older woman) not to kneel. Even my kids were taken aback.***

I would make an appointment with the priest and ask him point blank if kneeling will be permitted when you move upstairs. If he says, no explain to him why the prohibition hinders your worship to the extent that you are forced to go elsewhere to honor your conscience.

If he says kneeling will be permitted upstairs (my guess is it will not) ask him what is being harmed with your kneeling since you are not insisting that anyone else kneel. Offer a medical release if kneeling on the concrete causes you any physical injury.

That's the opinion of this proddy pastor with papal aspirations! BTW, when I am Pope I will personally autograph a kneeling pillow for you to use either upstairs or downstairs.
335 posted on 07/06/2003 9:15:29 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
BTW, when I am Pope I will personally autograph a kneeling pillow for you to use either upstairs or downstairs.

Introducing the Pope Piel Pocket Prie-Dieu!

Ideal for outdoor Masses, pilgrimages and prayer gatherings!

The plush fibrofoam padding saves wear and tear on your pants and skirts and forms to fit your posture, keeping away that annoying lower back pain!

The lightweight aluminum frame folds up for convenient handling and storage so you can take it anywhere!

But wait, there's more! Order now and you get a new Roman Missal personally autographed by Pope Piel himself, complete with a deluxe vinyl leatherette carrying case!

Take advantage of this amazing TV offer, operators are standing by!

336 posted on 07/06/2003 10:41:05 PM PDT by Loyalist (Keeper of the Schismatic Orc Ping List. Freepmail me if you want on or off it.)
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To: Loyalist
***Pope Piel Pocket Prie-Dieu!***

These ought to be popular on Mrs. Pope's Vatican QVC channel.

Later we can come out with a version with wheels and handles that serves as a walker too. Ought to appeal to the seniors.
337 posted on 07/06/2003 10:47:22 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: ninenot
At a parish meeting last Monday,called to answer questions about what was going on in the diosese after the resignation of our bishop,the woman next to me asked the pastor if he didn't think it would be a good idea to encourage Catholics in Phoenix to watch EWTN.He looked very puzzled and seemed genuinely confused,and said "what is that?".She said "Mother Angelica's network",he shook his head,apparently totally unaware of it. Hard to believe but as they used to say "truth is stranger than fiction".

I really didn't know what to think except that it would be good for him to watch it once in a while,might introduce him to Catholicism,the Faith so many of us know and love.

338 posted on 07/06/2003 11:48:22 PM PDT by saradippity
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To: american colleen
I think it may be time to go elsewhere.Or,I just might sit and cover my eyes with my hands with my head bowed. I have experienced a true and vivifying interior participation in the Mass in that posture.I only did that two or three times,once because of an injury I had that made kneeling impossible and the other times when the stadium seating made kneeling impossible.Jesus knelt in prayer,so there is something very offputting to me with this standing at attention for God,as if he is the president or a general or a judge.

I know that this sitting I am recommending may seem disrespectful but to me the Mass is for a special communion with God and I just cannot get into it standing at attention with the community.

I have noticed an increasing polarization and separating of the forces.The parishes that are orthodox are getting more so and the other ones are trying harder to impose any document that supports innovation,liberalization and decatholicization of the Catholic Church.

339 posted on 07/07/2003 12:30:34 AM PDT by saradippity
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To: saradippity
***I have noticed an increasing polarization and separating of the forces.The parishes that are orthodox are getting more so and the other ones are trying harder to impose any document that supports innovation,liberalization and decatholicization of the Catholic Church.***

Time for a reformation.

- Pope Piel
340 posted on 07/07/2003 3:44:31 AM PDT by drstevej
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