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Texas Pastor Removed Over Latin Masses
Seattle Catholic ^ | July 4, 2003 | Peter Miller

Posted on 07/04/2003 9:27:18 PM PDT by Land of the Irish

For a Catholic priest in a small Texas town, it has been a particularly eventful week.

Over the course of three days, Fr. Stephen Zigrang JCL, pastor of St. Andrew's Church in Channelview, has been called into his bishop's office, threatened with suspension, removed from his parish and even forced to defend his mental health to his own father. These unfortunate events have taken place because Fr. Zigrang did something new during last Sunday's Masses — or, more accurately, did something very, very old.

Before each Mass on the morning of June 29th, Fr. Zigrang announced that he would no longer be offering Mass according to the revised missal of Pope Paul VI, instituted in 1969. He proceeded to offer the Mass according to the Roman Missal of 1962 (also called the "Latin", "Traditional" or "Tridentine" Mass). Parishioners who were used to attending a Mass in English, with the priest facing the congregation, witnessed a priest offer a Mass almost entirely in Latin, while facing the altar. Guitar bands and sing-along hymns were replaced by chants and reverential silence. Rather then standing up to receive Holy Communion in their hands, congregants were instructed to kneel and receive the Blessed Sacrament on their tongues. One of the three masses was a sung mass, also called a Missa Contata.

The Diocese Reacts Fr. Zigrang is a priest of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston, under Bishop Joseph Fiorenza. Upon hearing of the weekend's events, the diocese reacted immediately. Unable to reach him for most of the day Monday, the chancery sent word to Fr. Zigrang that the bishop would like to meet with him the following morning, July 1st.

Despite advice from others suggesting he be accompanied by a lawyer, Fr. Zigrang went to see the bishop on his own. He was told that he would be suspended and had until the next day to vacate the St. Andrew's rectory. He was provided a letter signed by Bishop Fiorenza and the diocesan Chancellor, Monsignor Frank Rossi, admonishing him for his actions and informing him that failure to "follow the liturgical directives of the Holy See in the celebration of the Eucharist and the other sacraments … is a grave disobedience and threatens the unity of the Church within the parish committed to your pastoral care."

First thing the following morning, the Director of Communications for the diocese, Mrs. Annette Gonzales Taylor, responded to an inquiry from the night before with an email claiming that, "…your inquiry is a bit premature in that Fr. Zigrang has not been suspended. At this time, Bishop Fiorenza and Fr. Zigrang continue to be in conversation."

When reached by phone to clarify the matter, Mrs. Taylor reiterated that Fr. Zigrang was not suspended, is still the pastor of St. Andrew's and no action has been taken against him. She said that she did not know whether he was at the parish today as priests take some days off. When asked why Fr. Zigrang would be (as witnesses claimed) in the process of moving out of the rectory if no action had been taken against him, she did not know.

At some point that same morning, as he was moving out of the parish rectory, Fr. Zigrang was called by Bishop Fiorenza, who recommended that he take a two month leave of duty. It was further suggested that Fr. Zigrang may want to seek psychiatric counseling during this time.

The following day, June 3rd, parishioners found a note on the St. Andrew's church door explaining that there would be no daily Mass or Eucharistic adoration. The note also referenced the name and number of another priest to contact.

Finally, Fr. Zigrang's elderly father was contacted this week by Chancellor Monsignor Frank Rossi, who expressed to him concerns about Fr. Zigrang's psychological well-being.

Past Efforts Fr. Stephen Zigrang has been a priest in the Diocese of Galveston-Houston for over 25 years and pastor at St. Andrew's for the past six. He is a former seminary instructor and has a licentiate in canon law. He was previously a member of the diocesan marriage tribunal where his lack of lenience toward annulment applications brought him into conflict with his peers.

Prompted by years of liturgical research and studies which drew him toward the Traditional Latin Mass, Fr. Zigrang had requested on multiple occasions for the opportunity to offer a public Tridentine Mass in a parish. His most recent request came in January of this year when he sent a letter to Bishop Fiorenza requesting permission to convert St. Andrew's parish in to a traditional parish (dedicated to the practice of the Tridentine Mass and other sacraments) or start such a parish in another location. Six months later, he had still not received a reply.

For the past couple years, Fr. Zigrang has been offering the Latin Mass privately in the rectory at 6:30 each morning. When he attempted to offer a single Latin Mass for his congregation on Sunday mornings, he was ordered by Bishop Fiorenza to stop.

In 1988, responding to Catholics attached to the Traditional Mass and sacraments, Pope John Paul II called for the "wide and generous application" of Latin Masses throughout the Church, but the decision was left up to each bishop on whether or how to implement those directives. Many bishops have refused to allow any such Masses, while some have allowed only limited access.

In the Diocese of Galveston-Houston, home to 1.5 million Catholics and the largest diocese in Texas (eleventh largest in the United States), there is a single Latin Mass offered on Sundays in downtown Houston. Not all believe that these accommodations are adequate to meet their spiritual needs, or in the "wide and generous" spirit alluded to by the Holy Father. Catholics who need to travel great distances with families have requested that the early Mass time be moved or another Mass be added for more reasonable access. Some have requested daily Masses; others Masses on Holy Days of Obligation; and still others a traditional parish, going so far as to locate property and priests available for such an arrangement. These requests to Bishop Fiorenza have reportedly been ignored or denied. The attendants of the Mass also are under certain restrictions, including a prohibition from promoting or advertising the Mass.

Critics point out that this diocese, which prides itself on promoting and celebrating diversity, particularly in liturgical matters, has demonstrated a clear and disturbing exception when it comes to the Tridentine Mass. Although hundreds of Masses are said throughout the diocese in a multitude of languages from Spanish to Chinese, and in a multitude of styles from "Country Music" to "Gospel Spiritual" with little to no concern from the bishop, requests for Traditional Masses are ignored and attempts to offer Masses in Latin quickly and definitively put to a stop.

Parishioners Respond The parishioners' responses to Fr. Zigrang's Latin Masses have been varied. Many were surprised but respectful of their pastor's decision, but there were also some notable negative and positive reactions. Some were openly hostile toward the move, storming out of the church at the beginning of Mass. Members of the musical band which performs at the 10:30 Mass were particularly dismayed (having no role during a Latin Mass), as were lectors and extraordinary ministers. After one of the Masses, a regular guitar player was particularly vocal about the complaint that would be forthcoming to the bishop.

On the other end of the spectrum, other parishioners were greatly appreciative of the opportunity afforded to them. Some old enough to remember when the Mass was in Latin were given a reminder of how much had changed and some of what was lost. Others who had never experienced such a Mass were struck by its simplicity and beauty. At least once attendant commented on the contemplative rather than "entertainment" focus, and another described it as "absolutely beautiful".

Several congregants came up to Fr. Stephen Zigrang after Mass to personally thank him. In what now appears to be his last Sunday at the parish, he gave them the rare opportunity to experience a Latin Mass in their parish, and allowed them to witness firsthand the reason for which their pastor was willing to risk the consequences which would soon follow.

***

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TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; fiorenza; tridentinemass
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To: St.Chuck
"He wants us confused. He wants us to think the bishops are crafty evildoers subverting the faith when they aren't partaking in ritual rape. He wants us to believe that the Masons and Communists and Queers are running the show and that the New Mass is a product of their machinations to protestantize us."

You might want to ask Bsps.(emeritus) Weakland (Millwaukee), Ziemann (Santa Rosa) and Ryan (Springfield, Ill.) about this part of your statement.
221 posted on 07/06/2003 6:16:12 AM PDT by rogator
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To: narses
Dear narses,

Actually, I have been thinking of going to an indult Mass. I will prepare first, if I go.


sitetest
222 posted on 07/06/2003 6:19:42 AM PDT by sitetest
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To: St.Chuck
Dear St.Chuck,

You know, I missed that the first five times I read the article.

My apologies to the bishop. He has granted an indult Mass. Unless attendance is bursting at the seams, you are completely correct that he may decide not to inconvenience others my introducing additional indult Masses where they are not really wanted.


sitetest
223 posted on 07/06/2003 6:21:01 AM PDT by sitetest
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
Dear CoD,

You have been badly, and sadly misinformed. There are some things in the Mass which are unchangeable, there others that may be changed. No pope may bind a future pope on things which are changeable in the liturgy. To the degree that you assert that one did, you are incorrect. And many popes made changes to the Mass after Pope Pius V.

But if you want to go down that road, with those arguments, then you've pretty much accepted the arguments of the schism. How sad.

In the meanwhile, THIS pope has specifically stated that to say the indult, one must have the bishop's permission. To say the old rite without it is to disobey bishop AND pope.

If you say otherwise, then you are in the SSPX camp, or worse. You are saying that there are multiple Magisteria. When you get to that point, you're already most of the way down the street to becoming a Protestant.


sitetest
224 posted on 07/06/2003 6:26:21 AM PDT by sitetest
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To: Desdemona; narses
Dear Desdemona,

No, you may not change my analogy without first answering. It was my analogy. But ironically, the bishop did nothing so harmful to the priest as a wife refusing use of the marriage, nor even a husband harming his wife's self-esteem.

The bishop PERMITTED the priest to say the old rite in private, and merely required him to say the new rite in public. The bishop judged that the pastoral needs of the priest's parish ruled out the use of the old rite, publicly. That is within the discretion of the bishop to decide.

Both rites are valid. Both rites are worthy. To say otherwise is to denigrate the new rite. Just ask narses. To insist on saying the old rite IN DISOBEDIENCE TO THE BISHOP, is to say that the new rite is unworthy, is not good, and thus justifies disobedience.

"The priest is in charge. It's his call to make."

No it isn't, not regarding the use of different rites. The pope has specifically reserved this decision to the Ordinary of the See. That's how it is. You can talk, or post, until you're blue in the face, that is the law of the Church. This priest was horribly disobedient. The bishop permitted him the faculty to say the old rite privately.

Frankly, now that I've re-read the article, and learned there is already an indult in the diocese, I'm much less inclined to have any sympathy for this disobedient priest at all.

"Every parish I've ever been priests have done this sort of thing, so with me that dog isn't going to hunt, point, retrieve or go to ground."

And when priests change the rubrics or otherwise play fast-and-loose with the liturgy without the permission of the bishop, folks like us, including you, scream bloody murder. The priest is disobedient! And we think the bishop ought to crack heads when it happens. Well, here, the priest uses AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT RITE from that which he is authorized to use. Do ya think that's a bit of a change from the authorized rite? Do ya?

The bottom line, Desdemona, it isn't the priest's decision whether or not this or that rite will be used in his parish. The pope has given this discretion to the bishop, the Ordinary of the See. If you don't like it when "progressive" priests innovate with the liturgy, you ought not like it when priests like this take liberty with the rites. Or is making a small change to a rite a greater disobedience than discarding one rite altogether for the rite of one's preference, in abject disobedience?


By the way, my wife did not vow obedience. ;-)


sitetest
225 posted on 07/06/2003 6:38:40 AM PDT by sitetest
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To: Desdemona
Dear Desdemona,

Unless you're willing to concede that the new rite is valid, inherently good, worthy, sufficiently teaches Catholic doctrine, and cannot be the legitimate cause of this priest's disobedience, it seems to me that you are being grossly inconsistent.

If the new rite is not truly harmful to souls, then the priest was not justified in his disobedience. If you believe the new rite is sufficiently harmful to souls to justify the disobedience, then you are obligated to seek out the old rite, no matter what the cost.

"As for the Mass, maybe it is more my idea, to stay where I am and push for change there."

Well, then, that is wonderful! Then the new rite can be a source of spiritual help to the Catholic, and can be celebrated in a worthy way! And this priest could have done just that, couldn't he have? If YOU can help to make things better, help to move the parish where the Mass is celebrated better, imagine how much more so this pastor could do!

Being pastor, no one could stop him from celebrating the NEW RITE in a reverent, uplifting, spiritually-nourishing way.

That being the case, Desdemona, he had no right to disobey his bishop and say the old rite publicly.


sitetest
226 posted on 07/06/2003 6:44:17 AM PDT by sitetest
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To: ultima ratio
I will tell you a fact just as horrifying....some years ago, my Grandfather, who was a devout Roman Catholic passed away, and at the Funeral mass that followed, I was invited by a nun to take communion...I am Orthodox Christian, so I questioned her as to what the Roman beliefs are on the Gifts, Real Presence, etc. and was told that "it really doesn't matter, it is whatever YOU believe it is!"....my Aunt, a RC all her life almost passed out when she heard that, and I didn't go to communion needless to say.
227 posted on 07/06/2003 7:19:44 AM PDT by TexConfederate1861 ("believing in the 7 Ecumenical Councils!")
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To: St.Chuck
"He wants us to believe that the Masons and Communists and Queers are running the show ..."

The FACT is that the hierarchy of the American Catholics Conference of Bishops is RIFE with sexual deviants and those willing to coverup the sexual molestation of young boys. Two out of three of them, according to an absolutely well documented database linked on my homepage here.

When 67% of the leadership of an organization that are called by God through His Church to celibacy either sexually molests people (including children) or deliberately conceals the sexual molestation crimes of subordinates, you have a de facto CRIMINAL ORGANIZATION.

Governor Frank Keating, a trained lawyer, a trained prosecutor, a trained FBI agent and a devout, pius Catholic has compared some (pointedly NOT mentioning Abp. Mahony) of the hierarchs to MAFIOSO chieftains.

I understand your umbrage at what you see as attacks against the Church, I submit though you are being wilfully ignorant of the facts and the sad, sinful state of the USCCB. You may be enabling the very sodomites and criminals who have created this disaster by attacking and trying to silence legitimate discourse amongst the laity.
228 posted on 07/06/2003 7:21:30 AM PDT by narses ("The do-it-yourself Mass is ended. Go in peace" Francis Carindal Arinze of Nigeria)
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To: TexConfederate1861
Dear TexConfederate1861,

Though the nun had a poor understanding of Catholic teaching, nonetheless, Catholic teaching recognizes the validity of Orthodox holy orders and sacraments, and the correctness of Orthodox doctrine. Thus, Catholic law makes no bar to Orthodox to receiving the Blessed Sacrament in our churches.

However, the Catholic Church recognizes that this may not be permitted by the specific Church to which an Orthodox belongs, and our law encourages that Orthodox law be respected.

Thus, whether or not to receive becomes the judgement of the individual Orthodox, informed by those who give him spiritual direction.


sitetest
229 posted on 07/06/2003 7:29:23 AM PDT by sitetest
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To: sitetest
Yes...I agree, and my Church forbids me to take communion, in ANY church other than Orthodox, but my point was that her statement was heresy, even to Roman Catholics!
230 posted on 07/06/2003 7:42:04 AM PDT by TexConfederate1861 ("believing in the 7 Ecumenical Councils!")
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To: sitetest
I look forward with great interest to your report, should you go and should you post such. Have you been to a Tridentine Rite Mass before?

If you want to see the liturgy at it's finest, my suggestion is to find from the schedule a Missa Cantata, or a Pontifical High Mass, if such is available. See http://www.unavoce.org/atlamass.htm for a personal account of such. They last much longer than a low Mass, but I rarely notice that (unless the arthritis acts up).

Preparation? A Missal with English translation is the only preparation I can think of, that plus appropriate dress. Women usually wear a dress or skirt/blouse combo as pants for women are not considered "modest" in most Traditional congregations, they also wear a chapel veil, but loaners are almost always in the vestibule and a dress hat or scarf are often seen as acceptable alternatives.
231 posted on 07/06/2003 7:46:19 AM PDT by narses ("The do-it-yourself Mass is ended. Go in peace" Francis Carindal Arinze of Nigeria)
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To: TexConfederate1861
Dear TexConferate1861,

Yes, I got the point. It's just that I don't have high expectations of folks to really understand teaching. If they get the practice right, that is often all that can be expected.

sitetest
232 posted on 07/06/2003 7:50:27 AM PDT by sitetest
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To: St.Chuck
Bishop Fiorenza had the diocesan vicar general call Fr. Zigrang's father and tell him that his son was mentally unbalanced.

It was standard Soviet practice to label dissent from the regime as a symptom of mental illness.

This practice has made its way into many dioceses and orders as a way to marginalize anyone who doesn't go along every liberal fad and trend.

Imagine if your boss called your parents and carried out a character assassination on you because you had a dispute with him.
233 posted on 07/06/2003 7:55:14 AM PDT by Loyalist (Keeper of the Schismatic Orc Ping List. Freepmail me if you want on or off it.)
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To: sitetest
I should have added, though I'm sure it's unecessary, the spiritual preparations are the same, as the Church intends the Mass to be the same, the Holy, Unbloody Sacrifice of Our Lord.

Dominus Vobiscum.
234 posted on 07/06/2003 8:02:40 AM PDT by narses ("The do-it-yourself Mass is ended. Go in peace" Francis Carindal Arinze of Nigeria)
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To: narses
Dear narses,

No, I haven't been to an old rite Mass, before. I have been to new rite Masses celebrated in Latin, and didn't really care for that.

As for dress, I assume that dress slacks, an open-collared dress shirt, and dress shoes are appropriate for my sons, age 8 and 6? Also, will I be too casual if I don't wear a jacket and tie? I have some respiratory problems (lingering results of previous illnesses), and churches are usually badly ventilated AND I NOTICE. As a Knight of Columbus, I must wear jacket and tie, or even a tuxedo, at Mass several times a year (including today, which is our Mass for Installation of Officers), and when I must dress like this, it's very difficult for me. Usually, I wear dress slacks, open-collared dress shirt, and dress shoes to Mass. Is this too casual for the old rite?

Chapel veil - I'm sure we can afford to acquire one for my wife. It oughtn't be too great a financial burden. ;-)

My wife is up for our Excellent Adventure, though my sons, age nearly-9 and 6, haven't been enthusiastic. Because of my involvement with the Knights of Columbus, we often must go to Mass in other parts of the state, and they don't like it.

There is a small parish in southern Maryland with an 11 am old rite Mass, and I think that will be the one for which we aim. The pastor assures me that, unlike the old rite at Old St. Mary's in downtown Washington, DC - which is usually filled to the rafters, this Mass is sparsely attended, which will be more comfortable for me, respiration-wise, and more conducive to good behavior for my sons.

After Mass, we can go down to Solomon's Island and enjoy the rest of the day by the water. In this way, I think, my sons will be mollified.


sitetest
235 posted on 07/06/2003 8:15:14 AM PDT by sitetest
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To: St.Chuck
Let's take your points one by one.

1. You say it is a lie to claim the Mass is harmful to souls. Yet statistics show two-thirds of all Catholics no longer believe in the Real Presence--a dogma formerly confirmed by the Old Mass, but suppressed by the New. How is this not harmful for souls? You insist there is no connection--but the weight of the evidence is against you. Catholics today show no difference in doctrine or morality from their Protestant counterparts. Even worse, they abort and use contraception and otherwise behave just as their secular counterparts. Statistics show, in other words, that they are Catholic in name only. You would claim there is no connection between this and the new liturgy--but the claim is implausible. These profiles began to emerge just after the institution of the New Mass. To claim there is no connection would be a stretch--just as is the claim there is no connection between the passionate support of the Novus Ordo by bad bishops and the Novus Ordo itself. It all ties together: we believe as we pray--and Catholics today believe what they choose to believe--and bad bishops do likewise.

2. You claim Satan wants to divide us--and indeed he does. But it is not I who follow his lead, but the modernists who have broken free from two thousand years of tradition. Traditionalists believe nothing new, practice nothing new, invent nothing whatever. It is the modernist revolution which has been "in your face", not traditionalism which simply wishes to be left alone and given an opportunity to worship as conscience demands. Every wacko liturgical innovation imaginable is given wide approval by the bishops--gay Masses, polka Masses, teen Masses, liturgical dances, you name it. The Traditional Mass alone is viewed with great alarm--why? Is it not because it affirms the old faith and a Catholicism which flourished up and until the nineteen-sixties? And does not this prove that it is the revolutionists who divide us from our heritage and seek to impose a new faith--and not traditionalists who affirm what had always been affirmed until recently? How can the refusal to follow such radically new doctrines and practices be explosive and divisive? It is the innovators who are divisive, not those who follow tradition. They will deny us the right to kneel for Communion, for instance--clearly intending to restrain the inclination to adore the Eucharist--and then claim that it is we who would kneel who are divisive, are troublemakers, are disobedient--when it is they who are playing an elaborate game of bait-and-switch, substituting a Protestant faith for a Catholic one.

3. You claim I want the Pope to be ignored and calumnied. That is itself a lie. I criticize the Pope for his inaction, for introducing novelties such as Assisi I and II, for his harsh put-downs of traditionalists while he tolerates all sorts of abuses from the left--but I have never calumniated this pope, I have never stretched the truth about him, I have never claimed he is in heresy, I have never denied his supremacy in the Church. If he causes scandal at outdoor papal Masses which have become occasions of unthinkable liturgical abuses, how is it calumny to point this out? If he kisses the Koran and apologizes to Islam--how is this not scandalous to those who remember the aggressions of Islam against Christendom? How is it not shocking to see a Buddha displayed on top of a tabernacle during one of his pan-religious rallies? How is it not profoundly upsetting to see this Pope affirming the very modernism preconciliar popes condemned? My major criticism has always been that this Pope has not used his awesome powers to defend tradition as he is obliged to do as pontiff, as preconciliar popes had always done, and he has not disciplined the enemies of traditional Catholicism as he has likewise been obliged to do, but has actually done the opposite--even elevating to the cardinalate a man who has openly doubted the historicity of the Resurrection as well as Christ's divinity. I didn't make up this shocking fact--it is on record and is stunning in its mind-boggling audacity. Why is it wrong to question why a pope is REWARDING apostasy? How is it "calumny" to question these things? They are shocking and out of keeping with the whole of Catholic tradition.

4. A lie is intended to deceive. It is non-conformity of the mind to reality. For instance, it is a lie to say the Novus Ordo is a traditional Mass that is a "reform" of the old Mass when all the weight of the evidence is that it is a new concoction which never evolved from the previous rite but was fabricated by a committee of doubtful orthodoxy. But it is not a lie to speak unpleasant truths. Of course the New Mass is not traditional and is therefore a danger. Paul VI himself called it a "liturgical innovation" (which, as a novelty, the First Vatican Council warned would not have the protection of the Holy Spirit). And Cardinal Ratzinger openly ascribed to it the modern crisis in the Church: "I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves today depends in great part on the collapse of the liturgy." (La Mia Vita, quoted by Michael Davies in the Latin Mass, Fall 1997.) One of the greatest of all liturgists, Klaus Gamber, openly expressed shock regarding its harmful effects. So have a host of churchmen and liturgists in very high places. Moreover it was precisely this form of the Mass that had been condemned by Trent. So I make no apology for what I say.
236 posted on 07/06/2003 8:57:35 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: JNB
You are incorrect in claiming traditionalists believe the Pope is a heretic. Some few of us do. Most don't. Sedevacantists--those who claim the pope has abandoned the chair of Peter due to heresy--are few and far between. This notion that traditionalists believe such a thing is flat-out wrong.

You are also wrong to suppose traditionalists believe the Novus Ordo is not valid. Most don't claim this. Many kinds of liturgies are indeed valid but unCatholic--for instance, the Orthodox Church has a valid liturgy. Even the Black Mass may be valid. So validity is not the question--only whether or not the Mass is properly supportive of the Catholic faith.

Both a new Mercedes and a 1990 Chevy are valid cars. But I wouldn't want to drive the latter cross-country. So it's not a matter of validity, which merely means Transubstantiation has taken place. It is the rest of it--especially those features already condemned by Trent--which are problematic for traditionalists.

237 posted on 07/06/2003 9:11:44 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: ninenot
You are not being consistent. You claim Bruskewitz WELCOMED the SSPV. When I pointed out this couldn't be, you stuck to your claim. Which is it? Has Bruskewitz indeed embraced sedevacantists, as you say? Are you ready to admit you got it wrong--that it was the FSSP, an indult fraternity, that he welcomed?
238 posted on 07/06/2003 9:16:53 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: ninenot
1. The Pope cannot tamper with Tradition. He is the supreme lawgiver for one reason only: to protect the deposit of faith and Sacred Tradition. The Novus Ordo was a violation of this trust. Power is given for a reason--not to lord it over others, but to guard the revelation and practices handed-down from the apostles. The question as to whether a pope has the authority to actually invent a Mass has, in fact, never been resolved. A pope, after all, is not an absolute monarch. He is hemmed in by Tradition itself and many great liturgists believe the question of whether or not he has the power to innovate a Mass is open to dispute.

2. The argument is not that the N.O. is contrary to the faith, but that it SUPPRESSES the faith and SUBVERTS the faith. Communion in the hand, proscriptions for kneeling, the emphasis on the commemorative meal aspect of the Mass which undermine its sacrificial elements, the removal of references to expiation for sins--all these, whether in Latin or in the vernacular--have done great damage to the Catholic faith. The old faith cannot find proper expression in such a negative liturgical environment.
239 posted on 07/06/2003 9:29:16 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: ninenot
"About a week ago, UR was pontificating (it's the only word that applies) in the political arena--he's a GWB absolutist, by the way--and I decided that he is an insufferable ass."

I am an insufferable ass for supporting George Bush? Does that go also for the other 63% of Americans who think he's doing a good job? Seems to me the ass is yourself for stating such nonsense.

240 posted on 07/06/2003 9:34:45 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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