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To: AlguyA; Patrick Madrid; Polycarp; BibChr; the_doc; drstevej; MarMema
Hi, AlguyA!! It's nice to see you.

I have a habit of mentally categorizing each of my RC Opponents into the Roles they play in my own personal "education by Life-Theater" (I tend towards narcisstic solipsism. So sue me).

Much obliged, and always a pleasure. But in response, I think I'll address your comments in reverse order.

Is it your contention John 3:16 would be better translated, "only-born" Son rather than "begotten" son? Or that there is no difference between the two?

No. The simple issue here is that New Testament Greek has two entirely different terms for "First-Born" (prototokon) and "Only-Born" (monogene), and both are used quite effectively in Scripture.

Monogene, meaning "Only" born or begotten, is used appropriately in John 3:16 -- Christ Alone is Eternally-Begotten of the Father, the "only-begotten" Son (monogene). But this isn't the terminology used with Mary -- the term there is "prototokos", meaning "first-born" Son AND NOT MEANING "only-born" Son, which is "monogene" (cf John 3:16, again).

In the Catholic Encyclopedia, Mr. Bechtel attempts to fudge the issue by pointing out that the "only" child to breach a woman's birthing canal is, by definition, the "first" child to do so. Well, yes, that's biologically true -- which together with a buck-seventy-five, will get you a cup of Hemingway java at Baby's Coffee outside of Key West. But Bechtel is still trying to skirt around the basic fact that, while his pedantic observation is biologically correct, these concepts demand two entirely different words in the Greek -- MONOGENE "Only-Born" or PROTOTOKON "First-Born". The Gospel writers had a clear choice, used "only-born" where appropriate, and chose "first-born" in regard to Jesus birth of Mary.

Moving along....

Hmmm, could you please provide the quotes Eusebius and Clement offer stating Jesus and James were "blood-brothers." The references I've seen from these two sources would argue just the opposite.

Here's a dollop of the relevant quotes:

Now I've got two questions for you (and also Mr. Madrid):

So pardon my sarcasm, AlguyA...

But exactly where does Bechtel get off, 1900 years after the fact, with his delusional claims that Cleophas was the Father of James the Righteous when the Blessed Saint Clement expressly states that Cleophas was the UNCLE of James the Righteous?!?! (which, incidentally, would make Joseph and Mary the FATHER and MOTHER of James the Righteous)?

Vietnam, Deja Vu?

We must burn down Tradition, in order to save it?

No dice, kemosabe.

best, OP



161 posted on 07/08/2003 2:42:45 AM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done our Duty)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
"The Gospel writers had a clear choice, used "only-born" where appropriate, and chose "first-born" in regard to Jesus birth of Mary."

First, thanks for your kind words. I'll be answering your post with several posts so please bear with me. Let's start with monogene.

I believe your observations are correct -in a sense. Monogene means "only-born" while the Holy Spirit chose "first-born" to describe Jesus' relationship to Mary. But I think I differ with you on the import of this fact. Monogene, when applied to Jesus, means something more than just "only-born" from what I've read on the subject. Indeed, from my understanding it connotes, also, a one-of-a-kindness, a specialness. And it is from this connotative sense that we derive, "begottenness" -the idea that the Second person of the Trinity, God the Son, has always coexisted with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.(And, of course, we especially derive it from the openning sentences John 1.)

Now, look what would happen had the Holy Spirit inspired the Gospel writers to apply monogene to describe Jesus as Mary's only child. The specialness of the relationship between God the Son and God the Father would be muddied. Indeed, on another thread right now, a Calvinist (God bless him) is pointing out an early Mormon belief of God the Son at some point being "born" to God the Father. Now, imagine how much stronger the Mormon heresy in this regard would be if the Holy Spirit had decided to use monogene to also describe the relationship between Mary and Jesus. Monogene is used in the New Testament several times to describe an only child, but it is reserved by John, when he references Jesus, for the special case of the relationship between the three Persons of the Trinity.

Hence, I would argue it makes perfect sense that, when inspiring the Gospel Writers, the Holy Spirit would reserve monogene to describe this special Triune relationship, while using the conventional OT "first-born" usage described by Bechtel to denote the relationship between Mary and Jesus.

It is good that believers ponder such things, even though I'm sure you'll disagree with me. In the last day or two, as I've pondered and prayed on your post, I have found it very fruitful just contemplating such things. Peace be with you and know that I will be addressing the whole "James the Rightous" part of your argument within the next day or so.

221 posted on 07/09/2003 12:44:44 PM PDT by AlguyA
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