To: Sir_Ed
The Assumption of Mary, The Immaculate Conception of Mary (says she was born sinless, didn't need salvation because she was sinless) or the Perpetual Virginity of Mary We've discussed the Perpetual Virginity here already. Regarding the Assumption, why is this so unreasonable? Matthew 27.52 tells us the graves of the Old Testmament Saints were opened and the Saints rose again. Ephesians 4.6-8 tells us Christ led these same Saints up into heaven at his Ascension (as also Enoch and Elijah were taken bodily up into heaven).
If Christ could do this for the Stains of the Old Testament, why woudl he not do so for His own Mother?
Regarding the Immaculate Conception, the doctrine says Mary was born with grace, and without concupiscence. It doesn't say she didn't need a savior, because she did (Luke 1.47), rather, it says her redemption from original sin took place at the moment of conception, and that when her soul was infused into her tiny zygotic body, it was also filled with grace at the same time that overcame Adam's sin (Luke 1.28). That's why the Angel greeted her "Chaire, Kecharitomene!" - "Hail, Full of Grace!"
It's why I could never become a Catholic, even though I have such respect for it outside of those doctrines...
If you truly want to become a Catholic, but this is a stumbling block, open your mind and pray to God for enlightenment on these topics, to grant you understanding.
To: Hermann the Cherusker
"We've discussed the Perpetual Virginity here already. Regarding the Assumption, why is this so unreasonable?"
It just isn't said in the Bible. If it's okay to just come up with ideas, why not say that James, John, Peter and Matthew were raised bodily into Heaven?
"Regarding the Immaculate Conception, the doctrine says Mary was born with grace, and without concupiscence. It doesn't say she didn't need a savior, because she did (Luke 1.47), rather, it says her redemption from original sin took place at the moment of conception"
If her redemption from sin took place at the moment of her conception, then that means she didn't need Jesus' crucifiction to grants her forgiveness from sin...
If God didn't need Jesus' sacrifice to grant Mary forgiveness of sins, then why didn't He just apply that same method of salvation to the rest of the world, and spare His Son from crucifixtion?
And if God could grant salvation to someone without the needed step of Jesus' sacrifice, why didn't He grant that same redemption of sins to John the Baptist? Or King David? Or Elizabeth?
But it also doesn't make sense because it's not mentioned anywhere in the Bible that there were TWO people born without being subject to Original Sin, Jesus and Mary...in fact, the record states that Jesus was the only one born not subject to Original Sin.
"If you truly want to become a Catholic, but this is a stumbling block, open your mind and pray to God for enlightenment on these topics, to grant you understanding."
If anything, I'm pulled toward Lutheranism, but cannot quite believe in the Real Presence, (or Contransubstantiation?). I attend a Calvary Chapel right now, in Southern Oregon...
Ed
355 posted on
06/25/2003 2:22:43 PM PDT by
Sir_Ed
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