Posted on 06/23/2003 2:36:07 PM PDT by Patrick Madrid
How do you read :
Jn. 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
Jn. 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no-one
can snatch them out of my hand.
Jn. 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all;
[Many early manuscripts What my Father has given me is
greater than all] no-one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
Jn. 10:30 I and the Father are one.”
Barukh haba b'Shem Adonai
Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord
Y'shua HaMashiach
chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>
Jn. 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. Jn. 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no-one can snatch them out of my hand. Jn. 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; [Many early manuscripts What my Father has given me is greater than all] no-one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. Jn. 10:30 I and the Father are one.”
The same way I read this:
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
We will be one with the Father and Yeshua. Doubt that would make us God.
Agreed. And since Luther believed he was following Christ by upholding the historic Christian teaching on Mary's perpetual virginity, you would do well to imitate his example. As Saint Paul said, "Be imitators me me, as I am of Christ" (1 Cor. 11:1).
And so ... I do and will follow Luther ... as he, in turn, follows Christ. To the extent that he doesn't, I will opt for another example (Christ comes to mind).
I also note that, when the Apostle Paul penned these words, ... the example of Christ, Himself, would have been much harder to come by (being in the process of being written and all), so ... Paul's example might be the very best one available.
Today, however, I have no such excuse, for the example of Christ is readily available to me, so, I can simply cut out all of the middlemen and follow Christ, so purely as His example is penned in the holy scriptures.
A great blessing indeed.
This is where we have to part company. I would see it as equivalent to having sex in a Church or in the Temple. Mary had been made indescribably Holy by God physically dwelling within her. Its incomprehendable to me.
Mary was not the Holy of Holies or the Ark of the Convenant, she was a living human being.
The book of Revelation directly compares her to the Ark of the Covenant, and uses the word seed to bring us back to mind of the prophecy of Genesis 3.15. Revelation 11.19-12.17 reads:
And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple. And there were lightnings and voices and an earthquake and great hail. And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. And being with child, she cried travailing in birth: and was in pain to be delivered. And there was seen another sign in heaven. And behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns and on his heads seven diadems. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered: that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod. And her son was taken up to God and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, that there they should feed her, a thousand two hundred sixty days. And there was a great battle in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought, and his angels. And they prevailed not: neither was their place found any more in heaven. And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world. And he was cast unto the earth: and his angels were thrown down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: Now is come salvation and strength and the kingdom of our God and the power of his Christ: because the accuser of our brethren is cast forth, who accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of the testimony: and they loved not their lives unto death. Therefore, rejoice, O heavens, and you that dwell therein. Woe to the earth and to the sea, because the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman who brought forth the man child. And there were given to the woman two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the desert, unto her place, where she is nourished for a time and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth, after the woman, water, as it were a river: that he might cause her to be carried away by the river. And the earth helped the woman: and the earth opened her mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Catholic Golf: A failed drive may be anulled allowing a second shot without penalty. Annuled drives are preapproved for golfers named Kennedy.
Novus Ordo Catholic Golf: Female caddies (shirts optional) watch as the golfer kisses the Koran for luck and then takes a stance looking away from the hole and hits the ball. Afterwards they all hold hands. Female fans in funky looking ballet get up do liturgal swirls to celebrate!
SSPX Golf: A foursome each slices the ball out of bounds and insist they are in the right fairway despite the rest of the tour continuing without them. They insist they were never officially disqualified and that the original course used the fairway they landed on. SSPX golfers insist on yelling "IV" instead of the vernacular "Four" to warn others.
You can't make this stuff up... ;-)
Jesus wasn't Joseph's son at all. But Mary was definitely his wife. I don't see where the relationship between Joseph and Mary is linked to the relationship between Joseph and Jesus.
Ordinary is hardly the way to describe the events that are related in the nativity stories.
I'm not talking about the nativity stories. I freely accept the doctrine of the virgin birth. I'm talking about after the nativity, of which we have little information relating to the relationship between Mary and Joseph.
And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. And being with child, she cried travailing in birth: and was in pain to be delivered.
I'm pretty sure that this is a picture of Israel, not Mary.
In what context? In the context of staying single? No. In the context of married life? Yes. It would be quite unusual, and if you re-read both the Old Testament and the 1 Corinthians 7 that was earlier quoted it was not something encouraged by either Jews or Christians for married couples.
In any case, the early Christians put high store by virginity.
Mary and Joseph were observant Jews, not Christians. They went to the Temple on the proper occasions and followed Mosaic law.
They did not like modern Americans rank a family life among the single life.
What?
After all, they believed that the Lord was to return soon, so a normal life was not for them. After Paul had a tremendous religious experience, he devoted his whole life to the mission that Christ had given him.
Putting him on the road a lot, off to a lot of meetings, and putting him at risk of his life; which is not conducive to married life. Paul wasn't Joseph, leading a relatively normal life, supporting his family as a craftsman.
But Mary and Joseph had an experience that makes Paul's experience pale by comparison. I do not think it remarkable that that experience would make them forsake a normal life and make them devote themselves entirely to the mission of raising that remarkable child.
But they didn't forsake a normal life. Mary raised her child (or children, depending on how you interpret Scripture) at home. Joseph worked as a carpenter to support his family. How does Joseph and Mary having sexual relations detract from their ability to raise Jesus? If anything, it would help strengthen the bond of love between them and help them support each other in their family life. Isn't that why God created man and woman and the sexual bond within marriage?
As far as 847, it does not say the ignorant are saved as they are. Reading it in conjunction with 843 thorugh 848 leads one to the same conclusion reading Lumen Gentium 13-16 brings. Men may be partially prepared for salvation by certain parts of their religions, which retain portions of the truth. But the actual event of salvation must occur from coming to the supernatural Catholic Faith - whether by Missionary activity, or by a special revelation.
1) Scripture tells us that God desires the salvation of all men.
The Church does not posit this verse (1 Timothy 2.4) in the same emphasis that you do. Para. 851 shows that the Church teaches that this verse means "God wills the salvation of everyone through the knowledge of the truth." Knowledge of the truth would be knowledge of that faith which is necessary by a necessity of means for salvation.
We should know that to believe some articles is necessary, as a means to obtain salvation (necessitate medii); and that to believe others is a necessary as a matter of precept. To say that it is necessary as a means of salvation to believe certain articles, implies that, unless we believe these articles, it is utterly impossible for us to be saved. To say that the belief of other articles is necessary as a matter of precept, implies that we are bound to blieve in these articles; but, should we be in inculpable ignorance of them, we are excused from sin, and may be saved. To know and believe the two articles already laid down, viz.: that there is a God, and that he is a remunerator of vice and virtue, according to the words of the apostle, "For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is a rewarder to them that seek him" (Heb. 11:6), is certainly necessary as a means of salvation. Some authors hold that the belief of the other articles – the Trinity of Persons, and the Incarnation of the Word – is strictly commanded, but not necessary as a means, without which salvation is impossible; so that a person inculpably ignorant of them may be saved. But according to the most common and best opinion, the explicit belief of these articles is necessary as a means without which no adult can be saved. It is certain, as Innocent XI declared in the condemnation of the sixty-fourth proposition, that he who is ignorant of the two mysteries of the Most Holy Trinity, and of the incarnation of Jesus Christ, cannot be absolved.
- St. Alphonsus de Liguori, Instruction on the Commandments and Sacraments, 1.1.8
John 17:3. And this is life everlasting that they know Thee, the only true God, and JESUS CHRIST Whom Thou hast sent.
3. Life everlasting.] Both the life of glory in heaven, and of grace here in the Church, consisteth in the knowledge of God: that, in perfect vision: this, in faith working by charity; for, knowledge of God without keeping his commandments, is not true knowledge, that is to say, it is an unprofitable knowledge. 1 Io. 2. (Rhiems New Testament, 1582)
Tie these notes on John 17.3 (and 1 John 2) back into Para 851, and we've come full circle. God's will for all men to be saved in the truth means he wills for all men to be saved by a faith in Christ working in charity such that we keep the commandments in our moral life, and have a love for our neighbor in our social life, all of this being the knowledge of Christ necessary for us to "know, love and serve him in this life so that we may be happy with him forever in the next."
Wow...thanks for pinging me over here...I never saw this thread. Big Mack and Becky are here too...good to read you guys. :-)
Here's what the early Church defined on the subject:
If anyone does not profess according to the holy Fathers that in the proper and true sense the holy, ever-Virgin, immaculate Mary is the Mother of God, since in this last age not with human seed but of the Holy Spirit she properly and truly concevied the divine Word, who was born of God the Father before all ages, and gave Him birth without any detriment to her virginity, which remained inviolable even after His birth: let him be anathema.
-Pope St. Martin I, Council of the Lateran, Canon 3, 649 AD
This definition settled permanently any controversy on the topic for Catholics.
The quotation you give is not meant to hold James out as Christ's physical brother, but rather his kinsman. You would do well to read Canon 1 of the same Council in Trullo, which says in part:
Moreover what things were set forth by the two hundred God-bearing fathers in the city of Ephesus in the days of Theodosius our Emperor, the son of Arcadius; these doctrines we assent to as the unbroken strength of piety, teaching that Christ the incarnate Son of God is one; and declaring that she who bare him without human seed was the immaculate Ever-Virgin, glorifying her as literally and in very truth the Mother of God. We condemn as foreign to the divine scheme the absurd division of Nestorius, who teaches that the one Christ consists of a man separately and of the Godhead separately and renews the Jewish impiety.
Keep your chin up bucko.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.