He's An Only Child -- A response to a Protestant argument against Mary's perpetual virginity

Envoy Magazine ^ | Ronald K. Tacelli, S.J.

[SoothingDave]

They were present. The angels didn't create. Only a hyperliteralist would conclude that.

Let me apologize to everyone for using the word "hyperliteral" in front of Steven, who has now adopted it as his own.

Steven, when your kids were smaller, did you ever say to them "Let's go out for ice cream" and then not get them any?

SD

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

he not have entrusted

#238 should read 'he would not have entrusted'

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Okay, so then according to your belief Jesus was not our Savior?

He is our salvation. Our atonement. Our Messiah. Again, God is our Savior.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Steven, when your kids were smaller, did you ever say to them "Let's go out for ice cream" and then not get them any?

When you were smaller did your dad ever say Dave let's read a book and then proceeded to read it to you?

[SoothingDave]

He is our salvation. Our atonement. Our Messiah. Again, God is our Savior.

Jesus is our "salvation" and our "atonement," but God is our savior?

What is the difference between "salvation" and "savior"?

And how is the death of one man "atonement" for all of us?

SD

[SoothingDave]

When you were smaller did your dad ever say Dave let's read a book and then proceeded to read it to you?

But the child is "reading" along with the father. Learning how to anyway. If I read a book with Sarah she can point to things and identify them. she is reading with me, though I do the bulk of the work.

You're not suggesting that God was teaching the angels how to create?

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

What is the difference between "salvation" and "savior"?

Come on Dave. Think a little deeper and save me some time. I know you don't agree but why make me expound on the obvious? Yeshua is our atonement and salvation because God makes it so. And if God didn't literally raise him He bestowed on him the power to ressurect.

[Quester]

Mary was raised in the Temple and was a consecrated virgin. Joseph, an elderly widower of the priestly caste, was appointed to be her caretaker and protector when she came of age to leave the Temple.

Where is the Apostolic record of this ? Would not such significant information have been recorded by at least one of the Gospel writers ?

Also remember, if Jesus had any blood siblings he not have entrusted the care of Mary to the apostle John at the the foot of the cross. It was Jewish custom for adult children to take care of their parents. If Jesus had siblings the task would have fallen to them at His death.

Recall that JESUS' brothers did not believe on Him at the time of His death.

Would JESUS place His believing mother in the care of His unbelieving brothers ?

[Invincibly Ignorant]

But the child is "reading" along with the father. Learning how to anyway. If I read a book with Sarah she can point to things and identify them. she is reading with me, though I do the bulk of the work.

Ok. Did your dad ever say "lets mow the lawn" and then did it himelf. He, perhaps wanted to make the angels feel part of it. Let's stop straining and the gnats and swallowing camels now.

[SoothingDave]

Recall that JESUS' brothers did not believe on Him at the time of His death.

#1, does that void their duty to take care of Mom?

#2, didn't they come around to believe in Him later?

Would JESUS place His believing mother in the care of His unbelieving brothers ?

#1, does not beliving that your brother is the Messiah mean that you will abuse your own mother?

#2, Didn't Jesus know they would come around to believe in Him?

SD

[SoothingDave]

Did your dad ever say "lets mow the lawn" and then did it himelf. He, perhaps wanted to make the angels feel part of it. Let's stop straining and the gnats and swallowing camels now.

Oh, all right. It's not a particularly strong argument, but it is open to the possibility.

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Oh, all right. It's not a particularly strong argument, but it is open to the possibility.

You hyperliteralists are all alike. :-)

[SoothingDave]

Yeshua is our atonement and salvation because God makes it so.

That's all you got? God is pleased with the sacrifice of one man and that is sufficient to repair all of the wrong that has taken place? How does one man's death satisfy the need for justice?

The beauty of the orthodox Christian position is that God loves us so much that He Himself takes on the punishment due to our sins. By sacrificing Himself He can bridge the unbridgeable gap caused by our sin.

I don't see how one man dying is supposed to do that.

SD

[Quester]

Regarding JESUS' brothers ...

#1, does that void their duty to take care of Mom?

#2, didn't they come around to believe in Him later?

#3, does not believing that your brother is the Messiah mean that you will abuse your own mother?

I wasn't asking about JESUS' brothers, I was asking about JESUS.

He, obviously, had the discretion to place His mother in the care of Whom He wished.

Would JESUS place His believing mother in the care of His unbelieving brothers ?

Further, did JESUS consider them to be His brothers ... ?

Matthew 12:12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

This would not have included any non-believing brothers.

Didn't Jesus know they would come around to believe in Him?

And in the meantime ...

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Hmmm. Mary and Joseph offered the required offering according to the Law for a "firstborn" even though they had not yet had their second child. How can this be?

Because like any normal married couple would, they planned on having more:)

Becky

[SoothingDave]

Further, did JESUS consider them to be His brothers ... ?

Who's being hyper-literal now? :-)

Didn't Jesus know they would come around to believe in Him?

And in the meantime ...

What? I don't see the threat to Mary's life or limb that is apparently visible to others. If the other brothers did not believe in Jesus as Messiah, so what? Would they have locked Mary in a cage and forbid her to believe what she wanted? Would that have changed her beliefs or role?

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

But there is ALOT here that is relevant.

Becky

[Quester]

What? I don't see the threat to Mary's life or limb that is apparently visible to others. If the other brothers did not believe in Jesus as Messiah, so what? Would they have locked Mary in a cage and forbid her to believe what she wanted? Would that have changed her beliefs or role?

Wasn't it better for her to be with believers ?

[HairOfTheDog]

God is relevant, I know, but I don't see the point in Christians arguing with each other about whether the train to heaven is really green or blue, or whether it passes through Cincinnatti or Denver on the way there. Christians have divided themselves into *ians and *ics and *ists and new little divisions appear every day, certain that their reading of some point is absolutely the best way. I just can't imagine a God who would really focus on such things, and I don't feel closer to him arguing about it.

[al_c]

(and to the rest of the usual suspects)

This seems to be the hot thread of the week. Should I post the daily readings over here instead? ;o)