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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Three interesting statements:

The punishment of original sin is the deprivation of the beatific vision.

Can you give me a reference from the Bible for this?

No amount of redemption can remove one from the effects of Original Sin.

Reference

And God cannot coezist with sin.

This one is SOOOOOOO unscriptural!!!

So it is difficult to understand how God could dwell within the womb of a sinner.

1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

You would do well to do less imagining and less listening to people who make things up and more reading of the Bible.

56 posted on 06/17/2003 12:04:22 PM PDT by Onelifetogive (Just read the Book, its all right there!)
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To: Onelifetogive
The punishment of original sin is the deprivation of the beatific vision.

And speaking as one who has had his beatific vision deprivated, it hurts!!!

64 posted on 06/17/2003 12:34:06 PM PDT by Onelifetogive (Just read the Book, its all right there!)
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To: Onelifetogive; drstevej
The punishment of original sin is the deprivation of the beatific vision.

Can you give me a reference from the Bible for this?

Not directly. But ...

Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3.5)

Whereunto baptism, being of the like form, now saveth you also (1 Peter 3.21)

Baptism is given as the only way into heaven to gain the vision of God.

But the fearful and unbelieving and the abominable and murderers and whoremongers and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, they shall have their portion in the pool burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. (Revelation 21.8)

Actual sin is shown as the only thing being punished by eternal torments "the second death" in the lake of fire. Cf. Galatians 5.19-21, 1 Cor. 6.9-10, Matthew 25.31-46.

Therefore, original sin deprives one only of the vision of God, but does not merit eternal torments.

No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the Bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1.18)

No amount of redemption can remove one from the effects of Original Sin.

Reference

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return. (Genesis 3.19)

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment: (Hebrews 9.27)

To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband's power, and he shall have dominion over thee. (Genesis 3.16)

Yet she shall be saved through child bearing; if she continue in faith and love and sanctification with sobriety. (1 Timothy 2.15)

Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord: Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. (Ephesians 5.22-23)

It sure doesn't look like redemption has removed the punishments of original sin from us, at least if you bother to read the Bible.

And God cannot coezist with sin.

This one is SOOOOOOO unscriptural!!!

There shall not enter into it any thing defiled or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie (Revelation 21.27)

And this is the declaration which we have heard from him and declare unto you: That God is light and in him there is no darkness. (1 John 1.5)

God cannot coexist with sinners and their sins. This is why sinners cannto go to heaven, no matter how much God might love them as His creatures.

So it is difficult to understand how God could dwell within the womb of a sinner.

1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

God only dwells within those in a state of grace. When you commit sin, God leaves your soul, just as surely as he left the Temple of Israel when Israel fell into corruption. Don't you get the parallel here?

He that hath my commandments and keepeth them; he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him. (John 14.21)

Jesus answered and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word. And my Father will love him and we will come to him and will make our abode with him. (John 14.23)

As the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you. Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love: as I also have kept my Father's commandments and do abide in his love. (John 15.9-10)

By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world. (2 Peter 1.4)

The Holy Trinity only dwells within those who keep God's word, His Commandments. As I said, it is difficult to understand how God could physically dwell within the womb of a sinner.

You would do well to do less imagining and less listening to people who make things up and more reading of the Bible.

You'd do well to actually read the whole Bible, and not selected verses beloved and manipulated by Protestants.

68 posted on 06/17/2003 1:03:42 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Onelifetogive
"You would do well to do less imagining and less listening to people who make things up and more reading of the Bible."


Without taking offense...

Is the Bible the ONLY reference for Christianity? Are you 100% sure - and can prove it - that God has NOT spoken to anyone re:His teachings in over 2000 years? Can you prove to me -- beyond the shadow of doubt -- that the hundreds of Biblical revisions were performed by people with no hidden agenda, and that unlike any other task performed by humanity, these revisions and translations were Perfect and without Flaw?

Obviously, a "no" answer is extremely detrimental to Protestant argument.

Note: I'm a former Catholic who left the Church for myriad reasons, but have not chosen to be Protestant because I personally answer "No" to too many of my questions above.

Thanks for your answer and not taking offense.


78 posted on 06/17/2003 2:38:15 PM PDT by Blzbba
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