Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

CATECHISM CC - Part 3 - MAN'S RESPONSE TO GOD
SC Borromeo ^

Posted on 05/17/2003 4:34:33 AM PDT by NYer

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-8081 next last
To: american colleen; Salvation; Desdemona
Yeah, I really like three things about the Tabernacle: it is beautiful, it shows our roots in faith, and that it's behind the altar, where it SHOULD be. :-)
61 posted on 05/17/2003 11:45:12 AM PDT by Pyro7480 (+ Vive Jesus! (Live Jesus!) +)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 58 | View Replies]

To: Desdemona
**And in this case, too much tradition is there to ignore it.**

And also Biblical references.
62 posted on 05/17/2003 11:45:15 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: american colleen
**I guess my point is that I cannot conceive how Jesus Christ was sinless and had a human nature gotten through the blessed Mary if her human nature was sinful. It would be the same as putting new wine in old wineskins.**

New wineskin and new faith.
63 posted on 05/17/2003 11:46:53 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: NYer
**Isn't the bible "written tradition"?**

But, unfortunately, (and the Protestants know this too.) ALL the tradition did not get written down!
64 posted on 05/17/2003 11:50:03 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Pyro7480
AMEN! BROTHER!

The Tabernacle behind the altar is one (of many) of my pet peeves. Probably the one that bothers me the most.

Part of our problems stem from the wordy and sometimes mushy stuff that comes out of the Vatican and most particularly, from the American bishops (USCCB). The moving of the Tabernacle I believe, is sacriligious. Unless of course the church is a church where there are many tourists - like St. Peter's or even my diocesean Cathedral. Then it is appropriate to place the Tabernacle in a side chapel for quiet prayer and reflection, far from the madding crowd, so to speak.

My parish priest says the Tabernacle on the main altar detracts or makes smaller the celebration of the Mass - they are two separate things, sez he. I don't see that at all - and I don't think most people do. Sounds like he has read too many "theologians" from some of our CINO colleges and universities.

65 posted on 05/17/2003 11:55:10 AM PDT by american colleen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 61 | View Replies]

To: Pyro7480
**I really like three things about the Tabernacle: it is beautiful, it shows our roots in faith, and that it's behind the altar, where it SHOULD be.**

Bumping that!
66 posted on 05/17/2003 11:59:58 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 61 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
How do you know that?

Becky

67 posted on 05/17/2003 12:03:32 PM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 64 | View Replies]

To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
It's what I believe, OK?
68 posted on 05/17/2003 12:12:26 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 67 | View Replies]

To: american colleen; Salvation; Desdemona; NYer
Here's what the parish's guided tour says about their tabernacle:

God instructed Moses to build the Ark of the Covenant 45 inches long and 27 inches high. That was 3,250 years ago (Exodus 25:10-22). Our Tabernacle is 45 inches long and is 27 inches high.

Two Cherubim faced each other over the Ark of the Covenant. Two Cherubim face each other over the Tabernacle.

The Ark of the Covenant was a symbol of God's presence; the Lord was believed to dwell between the Cherubim. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is truly present in the Tabernacle between the Cherubim.

The Ark of the Covenant was a place where God and His people communicated. The Tabernacle is a place where Jesus and His people communicate.

The Ark of the Covenant is a symbol of God's covenant with His people. The Tabernacle is a sign of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ with His people.

The Ark of the Covenant contained the Ten Commandments on two tablets of stone which were thought to go back to the time of Moses (1Kings 8:9). The Tabernacle contains not just God's Word to His people in the 10 Commandments, but God's Word Himself (John 1:1); this is symbolized in front of the Tabernacle by a book on which the Alpha and Omega appear - Jesus Christ, the beginning and end, the First and the Last (Rev 1:17).

A tradition said that the Ark of the Covenant also contained a vessel of Manna (Hebrews 9:4). The Tabernacle contains the true bread from heaven - Jesus Christ (John 6:49-51); this is symbolized by the chalice, grapes and bread, in the front (Lk 22:19-20).

A tradition said that the Ark of the Covenant also contained the rod of Aaron (Hebrews 9:4). A shepherd's staff on the outside of the Tabernacle indicates that Jesus Christ, the Good Shepherd, is inside the Tabernacle (Jn 10:11). The standing lamb is a symbol of the fact that within the Tabernacle is the Lamb of God - Jesus Christ (Jn 1:29). The Lamb is standing, indicating He is victorious.

With the Ark of the Covenant, God's presence could be seen by the people in the Old Testament and the "Glory of the Lord filled the dwelling" (Exodus 40:34). God is present to us now through His Son, Jesus Christ, who is present in the Tabernacle and is the new way into the Glory of God. Jesus is the fulfillment of God's promise of this intimate and everlasting presence through a new covenant in which "the nations shall know that it is I, the Lord, who make Israel holy, when mu sanctuary shall be set up among them forever." (Ex 37:28)

The gold plate on the Ark of the Covenant was the "place of atonement", the place where God received atonement, i.e., where reconciled satisfaction was made for sin and man with God. In the Tabernacle, we have Jesus Christ, who is truly present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. He is reconciliation for our sins because the Father sent Him for this purpose (1Jn 2:2;4:10). God reconciles us and the world to Himself in Christ (2Cor 5:18-19). We receive reconciliation through Christ (Rom 5:11).

The Fleur de Lis is an ancient form of the lily which is the most popular symbol of virginal purity and is especially applied to the Blessed Virgin Mary. Popular during the 12th century, it was selected by the French kings as their symbol. Later, it was used in the banner of Joan of Arc. It is in the window above the Crucifix and on the front of the Tabernacle. It also surrounds the Tabernacle in which Jesus is present, symbolizing the fact that the virginal body of Mary surrounded the presence of God on this earth (Jesus) for the 9 months she was carrying Him. She is then the new Ark of the Covenant.

69 posted on 05/17/2003 12:31:17 PM PDT by Pyro7480 (+ Vive Jesus! (Live Jesus!) +)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
OK, sounds like a winner to me.

Becky
70 posted on 05/17/2003 1:17:26 PM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 68 | View Replies]

To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Do you think that the oral statements and traditions that are spoken of in these verses, could not possibly have been written in one of the other letters, so that the whole Word of God IS revealed in scripture?

The Revelation of Yahweh to His chosen People was given to the Israelites and transmitted from generation to generation for centuries.

Peter defined the process of handing down the Revelation of Yahweh from father to son. The Greek word for this process of handing on the Word of God is paradosis .

1 Pet 1:18-19
... realizing that you were ransomed from your futile conduct, handed on (patroparadotos) by your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold but with the precious blood of Christ as of a spotless and unblemished lamb

The Bible testifies that the Apostolic Church exercised this teaching authority ("holding fast to the true message ... to refute opponents" (Tit 1:9)) beyond the words and deeds of Jesus Christ.

The Acts of the Apostles records that there were different truths being taught regarding keeping the Mosaic Law. One group represented by Judaizers taught that Gentile Christians must come to the Christian life through keeping the Mosaic Law; the second group represented by Paul taught that Gentile Christians did not need to keep the Mosaic Law. There was also no Scripture regarding the truth of the issue. So they appealed to the authority of the Holy Spirit in council. The Catholic Church has followed this model ever since. ------------------------------------------------------------------------

71 posted on 05/17/2003 1:35:13 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
You asked for more comments on the article, which BTW, is an opinion on intreprtation.

Sorry, Becky, I neglected to post the prologue to the catechism which is quite lengthy. Perhaps this will qualify the nature of the document.

This catechism aims at presenting an organic synthesis of the essential and fundamental contents of Catholic doctrine, as regards both faith and morals, in the light of the Second Vatican Council and the whole of the Church's Tradition. Its principal sources are the Sacred Scriptures, the Fathers of the Church, the liturgy, and the Church's Magisterium. It is intended to serve "as a point of reference for the catechisms or compendia that are composed in the various countries".15

Part Three: The Life of Faith

16 The third part of the Catechism deals with the final end of man created in the image of God: beatitude, and the ways of reaching it - through right conduct freely chosen, with the help of God's law and grace (Section One), and through conduct that fulfills the twofold commandment of charity, specified in God's Ten Commandments (Section Two).

72 posted on 05/17/2003 1:54:52 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
Thank you, Salvation! 82 times should be more than ample for anyone to get the message.
73 posted on 05/17/2003 2:00:01 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies]

To: Pyro7480
Thank you!! What a magnificent tabernacle, modeled after the one carried by the Jews through the desert. Simply magnificent church. Who would imagine such an edifice in MS?
74 posted on 05/17/2003 2:01:53 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies]

To: NYer; Salvation
Birth or Conception. I should have said conception. Was just writing and not thoroughly thinking at that time.

I am fascinated with the concept of Mary bearing the child of God. It appears to me a logical argument that for her to bear a child by another man while the father of her first child was still living would open her to biblical accusation. And Jesus WAS the only BEGOTTEN of the Father.

It is a small step from there to the process by which Mary "came to be with Child of the Holy Ghost." If the Holy God cannot be in the presence of sin without the destruction of that sin from His presence, then what MUST we have the state of Mary being when she was "overshadowed by the Most High?" She must have been perfect in all her ways before God, the Father of her son, Jesus Christ.

75 posted on 05/17/2003 4:49:18 PM PDT by RockBassCreek
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
See #75
76 posted on 05/17/2003 5:22:18 PM PDT by RockBassCreek
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: RockBassCreek; Salvation
I am fascinated with the concept of Mary bearing the child of God.

If you ponder this for a while, Mary's "yes" to God through the Archangel Gabriel, must surely have been accompanied by serious repercussions.

Move the story to today and it is no different. Imagine, if you will, your teenage daughter comes to you and tells you that an angel has asked her to be the mother of God's son. Today, yesterday, two thousand years ago, any parent would have had a similar reaction ... "yeah, sure". Now you find out that she is pregnant AND she is not married! What's your first reaction?

Even today, in Afghanistan, girls of 14 are betrothed and married off in pre-arranged unions. Just this week, I happened to watch a special on TLC about women giving birth around the world. One of the situations occured in Afghanistan. There was a side story - a 14 year old girl married off by her parents. The next morning, the in-laws come to the girl's parents, claiming that she was not a virgin. This is today, not 2 thousand years ago!!! Both families accompanied the girl to the hospital; the girl's mother carried with her a bloody rag from the previous night (supposedly evidence that her daughter was a virgin). Once at the hospital, the girl was examined by a team of doctors to determine whether or not she had been a virgin the night before. They decided in favor of yes. The girl was then returned to the in-laws who didn't believe the doctors. They were then free to do with her as they chose.

In Mary's day, unwed mothers were stoned to death. Imagine Joseph's response when Mary told him that she was "with child" by the Holy Spirit.

There is so much about the life of Jesus not recounted in the gospels. And yet, so much emphasis is placed on Mary's "virgin birth", by the gospel writers, without giving us any other details about her life prior to that event.

Mary's "yes" is truly worth reflection!

77 posted on 05/17/2003 5:37:55 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain; drstevej; NYer
But I would not say she is the most/only perfect emodiment of faith. There were others who by faith accepted God's will in their lives.

Im in agreement becky - however Im confused and wish someone would help me clear up why I have the notion that Jesus Himself was the most faithful

what am I missing / overlooking

78 posted on 05/17/2003 5:43:35 PM PDT by Revelation 911 (Orcae Ita!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Desdemona; drstevej
I also have confidence that there are others in history who knew things that were not included in the bible.

you do realize mormons would say the same of Joseph smith - I think they call it extrabiblical for a reason

79 posted on 05/17/2003 5:45:25 PM PDT by Revelation 911 (Orcae Ita!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Revelation 911
Your observation? confuses me. The people that are considered to be faithful, christians today that considered to be faithful, are faithful to God's command to trust in Jesus. Are you asking if Jesus was faithful to himself, (he is after all God), He was always and perfectly faithful to His Fathers will. His Father's will for us is to trust Jesus to save us and the HS to guide us.

Becky
80 posted on 05/17/2003 6:49:13 PM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 78 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-8081 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson