CATECHISM CC - Part 3 - MAN'S RESPONSE TO GOD

SC Borromeo ^

[NYer]

Catholics say it occurred at Mary's birth.

The basis for the belief in the Immaculate Conception of Mary can be found in the Biblical revelation of holiness and the opposite of that state, sinfulness.

God is revealed as perfect interior holiness.

Is 6:3

"Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts!" they (the Seraphim) cried one to the other.

No sin or anything tainted with sin can stand in the face of the holiness of God. "Enmity" is that mutual hatred between Mary and sin, between Christ and sin.

Gen 3:15

I will put enmity between you (the serpent, Satan) and the woman (Mary), and between your offspring (minions of Satan) and hers (Jesus); He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.

The salutation of the Angel Gabriel indicates that Mary was exceptionally "highly favored with grace" (Gk.: charitoo, used twice in the New Testament, in Lk 1:28 for Mary - before Christ's redemption; and Eph 1:6 for Christ's grace to us - after Christ's redemption).

Lk 1:28

And coming to her (Mary), he (the angel Gabriel) said, "Hail, favored one (kecharitomene)"

Eph 1:4-6

(God) chose us in him (Jesus), before the foundation of the world, to be holy and without blemish before him. In love he destined us for adoption to himself through Jesus Christ, in accord with the favor of his will, for the praise of the glory of his grace (echaritosen) that he granted us in the beloved.

The constant faith (paradosis) of the Church attests to the belief in the special preparation of the holiness of the person of Mary to bear in her body the most holy person of the Son of God.

Post-Apostolic:

Implicitly found in the Fathers of the Church in the parallelism between Eve and Mary (Irenaeus, Lyons, 140? - 202?); Found in the more general terms about Mary: "holy", "innocent", "most pure", "intact", "immaculate" (Irenaeus, Lyons, 140?-202?; Ephraem, Syria, 306-373; Ambrose, Milan, 373-397); Explicit language: Mary - free from original sin (Augustine, Hippo, 395-430 to Anselm, Normandy, 1033-1109).

[Desdemona]

Our source of knowledge is from His Word, which even He has magnified above ALL, which IMO, above tradition. We are to depend on His Word aabove all to reveal God.

Since the bible is regarded as the Word of God by TRADITION....

[Desdemona]

And please recall that the books of the bible were determined to be the word of God by criterea that is not in the document itself.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I do not believe that the Word of God IS the Word of God by tradition. I view it as the Word of God by faith that what He says is the truth. He says His Word is magnified above ALL.

IMO, no offence intended, to trust that the Word of God is the Word of God because of traditions from men, because it has been proven to you by men, shows a lack of faith in God's Word. I believe because God said. If you want to say to yourself (or even too me:), that I am fooling myself, that it is really tradition, that is fine, God knows my heart.

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I believe the bible we have now is because it is the bible that GOD intended us to have, not because men got together and decided it.

Becky

[Desdemona]

Alright, that's enough. YOPIOS is not the issue here.

This thread has really degenerated. Do you have any comments on any of the rest of the original post?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

You asked for more comments on the article, which BTW, is an opinion on intreprtation. Why should I not give mine. I was comming down thru the article making comments. And now you say that's enough rather sharply. This does have to do with the article. This is about faith. Accepting God at his word and acting upon it. Faith that God is in control, that I do not have to place my faith in men, or men's traditions, because they will always disappoint. If we trust God's Word we will always have peace with Him.

Rom. 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. (not tradition)

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Becky

[american colleen]

From His Word. He said ALL have sinned. He said that if thou shalt believe in the Lord, thou shalt be saved. He did not say All have sinned except Mary.

I guess it depends on the meaning of "ALL" ;-) -- "As in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive." As far as physical death is concerned (the context of 1 Cor 15), not "all" people have died (e.g., Enoch: Gen 5:24; cf. Heb 11:5, Elijah: 2 Kings 2:11). Likewise, "all" will not be made spiritually alive by Christ, because some will choose to suffer eternal spiritual death in hell.

You don't put new wine in old wineskins - everybody knows that! ;-)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

BTW, I meant to add that I am sorry you feel this has degenerated. I thought we had a very good discussion on different views of faith going. I apologize, I was only speaking in general terms, not specifically to you or anyone.

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

This is just a possibility here, I cannot say for sure it is right. But did you ever think that Enoch and Elijah may be the two witnesses that Rev. speaks of that come and testify in front of the temple during the end times and then are killed? It is a definite possibility.

Becky

[Desdemona]

Why should it be, then, that ONLY what is in the bible is the word of God. The truth is that there are many more writings out there with the Holy Spirit's fingerprints on them, but because they were written after the cutoff date, they were not included. There are writings by saints which, I believe, to be Divinely inspired.

I don't believe that the bible alone is all there is to the Word of God. There's much more.

I said that's enough because the section of the Catechism here, really, does not deal with the the bible itself. That comes later.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Maybe not, but she is the only one God, through the Archangel Gabriel, asked to be the mother of His son. THAT says more than anything else. And in this case, too much tradition is there to ignore it

I am being as nice as I can to have a civil discussion. It's drizzily and chilly here so I have nothing else to do but freep.

If you will note, you brought "traditions" into the discussion.

You were the one that commented/complained on the fact that Mary was the only thing being discussed from the artilce. So I tried to change to get along. I know Mary is a touchy subject. You have also in your last post given you opinion, after you said enough. But you are also inferring that you do not want me to discuss it anymore. Fine. I know exactly where this will go if I give a rebuttal to your response. Your right, it has degenerated.

So I will go back to coming down thru the article and giving MOPIOS.

Becky

[Pyro7480]

I checked out the link where this is excerpt of the Cathechism is from. The home page is for St. Charles Borromeo parish in Picayune, MS. For a church that was just concecrated in the past 5 years, it is truly beautiful. Here are some pictures from the inside of the Church.

Picture of the Tabernacle, which is modeled after the Ark of the Covenant.

The Sanctuary, with its six statues of angels

The Vestibule

The Nave

Marian Grotto

[Desdemona]

Fine, whatever. You're not the only one with bad weather. And I have a craky dog recovering from surgery.

I brought up tradition because someone on this thread brought up "the bible doesn't say..." which in the Catholic teaching is not a defense. Sola scriptura is not our way.

It has degenerated. Quite a lot.

[Desdemona]

Love the angels.

[american colleen]

Enoch and Elijah were thought to be the two witnesses by many of the Church fathers, as far as I know. I've also read that Moses may be one of the witnesses... based on a tradition that says that Moses was also taken up to heaven - also that Moses appeared with Elijah during Jesus' Transfiguration.

End-times - let's not even go there! ;-)

[Salvation]

Here is a reflection on this subject from today's One Bread, One Body.

It fits, so I hope people don't mind if I post it.

One Bread, One Body

<< Saturday, May 17, 2003 >>

Acts 13:44-52

Psalm 98

John 14:7-14

View Readings

BELIEVING OR BE LEAVING

“Believe Me.” —John 14:11

Did you know that the word “believe” is used eighty-two times in the gospel of John? Indeed, the very purpose of John’s gospel is that all who read it may “believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, so that through this” belief you may have eternal life in His name (Jn 20:31).

When a book or passage of Scripture uses the same word that many times, the Lord wants us to get the message. In today’s gospel reading, Jesus refers to believing in Him four times.

If we believe in Jesus and prove that belief by living a new life in Him, we will have eternal life with Him (Jn 6:47; 8:31; 20:31). If we refuse to believe in Him, we will die in our sins (Jn 8:24) and spend eternity separated from Jesus in hell.

John lists some reasons people refuse to believe in Jesus:

• not reading the gospel or ignoring its message (Jn 5:38, 46-47),
• not being willing to come to Jesus for help (Jn 5:39-40),
• a lack of love (Jn 5:42),
• the pride of preferring human approval to God’s approval (Jn 5:43-44), and
• a refusal to believe Jesus’ witnesses (Jn 20:25).

Jesus said, “This is the work of God, that you believe in the One the Father sent” (see Jn 6:29).  Jesus implores us: “Believe Me” (Jn 14:11).

Prayer: Jesus, “I do believe. Help my” unbelief! (Mk 9:24)

Promise: “All who were destined for life everlasting believed in it. Thus the word of the Lord was carried throughout that area.” —Acts 13:48-49

Praise: Rosa, a teenage single mother, turned to God after the birth of her baby, joined the Catholic Church, and joyfully received the Sacraments for the first time on Pentecost Sunday.

(This teaching was submitted by one of our editors.)

[american colleen]

What a beautiful Church - thanks for the pix. It's refreshing to know that not all parishes built in the last 40 years are boxes and angles and could have been constructed using cinderblocks.

If you go to amywelborn.blogspot.com she posted a picture of a new church in Munich (yesterday or today, I forget) and it is a CUBE with made out of glass with one entire side serving as a door - hideous, IMO. But I never liked modern art anyway. Something is wrong when I can do just as good a job on stuff as most modern artists do. I have absolutely no artisic talent except for good handwriting (thx to the good sisters).

[Salvation]

Beautiful!

[Salvation]

You have it right here, Becky!