The Faith is today TORN and SUNDERED with the politics of human beings but God is not mocked. The faithful will remain and will be transmogrified but they will not come out of any particular political eclesiastical system. By their fruits ye shall know them.Indeed the Church is torn and sundered. Worse yet, do you know the greatest enemy of Christian unity in the American Church today?
The end-of-the-world Pre-Tribulationist Rapture fanatics.
For 200 years (since the dawn of "Pre-Tribulationist Rapture Dispensationalism" in the 1830's), the end-of-the-world Pre-Tribulationist Rapture fanatics have essentially carved out their own Church. Theology used to be a "gentleman's disagreement" between Romans and Protestants -- sure, they burned us at the stake a time or two, but we still altogether more-or-less agreed with Augustine's amillenial "City of God".
The Church is the "City of God". The World is the "City of Man". We Live as Ambassadors; and the End will come... whenever it comes. The "End" could well be thirty thousand years from now. The Church MUST... and WILL... endure; because the "End" is not tomorrow.
Nowadays, many "American Protestants" make the-end-is-right-around-the-corner Eschatology a Test of Christian Fellowship.
- What if I told you that most of John's Revelation, the "things which must shortly come to pass", has already come to pass -- exactly as John prophesied?
- What if I told you that "Babylon the Great" in the Book of Revelation is not ROME, but is rather JERUSALEM, "the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."
- What if I told you that Rome IS NOT "Babylon", because Revelation is mostly already fulfilled??
- And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. ~~ The Revelation of Apostle saint John
Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one-and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner court of the temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." ~~ Josephus, "the Jewish Wars"
- And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. ~~ The Revelation of Apostle saint John
At Jerusalem were now three factions raging furiously. Eleazar, son of Simon, who was the first cause of the war, by persuading the people to reject the offerings of the emperors to the Temple, and had led the Zealots and seized the Temple, pretended to cherish righteous wrath against John of Gischala for the bloodshed he had occasioned. But he deserted the Zealots and seized the inner court of the Temple, so that there was war between him and Simon, son of Gioras. Thus Eleazar, John and Simon each led a band in constant fightings, and the Temple was everywhere defiled by murders. ~~ Josephus, "The Jewish Wars"
- And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
Admirable as were the engines constructed by all the legions, those of the Tenth Legion were of peculiar excellence. Their scorpions were of greater power and their stone-projectors larger, and with these they not only kept in check the sallying parties, but those also on the ramparts. The stones that were thrown were of the weight of a talent, and had a range of two furlongs and more. The shock, not only to such as first met it, but even to those beyond them for a considerable distance, was irresistible. The Jews, however, at the first, could guard against the stone; for its approach was intimated, not only to the ear by its whiz, but also, being white, to the eye by its brightness. Accordingly they had watchmen posted on the towers, who gave warning when the engine was discharged and the stone projected, calling out in their native language, "The SON is coming!!" ~~ Josephus, "The Jewish Wars"
The interesting thing is, even the Christ-Rejecting Zealot Revolutionaries of the First Century were not such fools as the Modern Protestant Apocalyptics of the 20th Century.
They knew EXACTLY what was happening. As the Talent-weight Hailstones of the Roman Artillery fell upon them, they did not cry, "The SUN is coming". This is not the Hebrew expression in question. As the Talent-weight Hailstones of the Roman Artillery fell upon them, they cried, "The SON is coming".
The Judgment of the Revelation of Jesus Christ was falling upon Jerusalem. RIGHT EXACTLY THEN. The Fulfillment of all Imprecatory Prophecy. And they knew it.
Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and ye perish from the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all they that put their trust in Him.
It is rather silly for "Protestants" to pretend that Rome is "Babylon the Great". Granted, she may act like a Whore ~~ but so does Protestantism. Regardless, the fact remains the same... JOHN WAS NOT LYING. The "Revelation" concerns matters which which "must shortly come to pass" in the First Century, and exactly as John declared, they already have.
Painful as it is to say, Luther was wrong. Rome (no matter how much she acts like a Theological Whore) cannot possibly be the Whore of Babylon. Most of Revelation has already happened.
We are left with Revelation 20 -- "The Millenium of the Church" (not exactly 1000 years, I suppose; But 1,000 years with the Lord is as a single Day). Just as Augustine himself exposited.
How long is the Revelation 20 "Millenium of the Church"? I don't know. Neither did Augustine.
Personally, I suspect it will last at least until the Roman Church returns to the Biblical-Pauline-Augustinian Gospel, and until the Protestant Church returns to... shucks, any "Gospel" at all.
Best, OP
You make excellent points against the Rapture folk. But we can hardly imagine the modern shape of American Christianity without its influence.
Uh oh, I fear Mercy, in his/her merciful fashion, must now consign you too unto the flames of eternal perdition for being an apologist for the Whore of Babylon. At least I'll have some good company with a keen sense of humor!
Well Gee, I was going to abandon this tiresome thread but you have drawn me back.
I've never been a big rapture rooter. Though I plead guilty to evangelical leanings I could never bring myself to arrange my doctrine based on one verse of scripture.
Let's just say if it happens I won't be carping about it.
Just as I believe that The Messiah did not scoop up twelve adult celibates out of jewdom and make them his eunich priests because it is contrary to common sense .... I don't think God would spend so much scriptural verbiage warning about The Last Day and then let it come and go and life go on as ususal.
The Jews were made Jews through the miraculous events surrounding their Exodus. The mind of the Jew was indelibly marked for all the ages. Not by mere words and traditions but by an imposssible plague, a column of fire and a parted sea. Just for starters.
Just so The Christ miraculously proved to his Apostles and many disciples that indeed God is God and ... He was one with God. This Son of God promised he would return. I believe Him. Surely you don't think THAT came and went?
Man has been given an amount of time to accept his salvation. This amount of time is measured. It is limited. The Second Coming has not happened yet. The Mount of Olives has not been split and rivers of living water run out. The Holy City has not descended. God is a God of miracles. The final act in this drama will be another time of miracles and all mankind will be given a final chance and a helping hand to get past their unbelief.
I don't know about a 'rapture'. It does not matter to me. But I do know about my God and he is a God of miracles. He has warned me that the world will end in a miraculous fashion and that some will be saved for eternal life because and out of this cataclysm. I in no way can tell just when these things will happen but I think the fig tree is budding.
It makes no sense The Lord would allow the play to go on another thirty thousand years as you say. After all he has to deal with our shortcomings.