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To: Aloysius; ninenot; drstevej; ultima ratio
Notice Vere didn't footnote these statements. He is likely making this up.

Protestants recognize the authority of the first four ecumenical councils, but, as first expressed by Martin Luther, do not regard ecumenical councils and their canons as binding on the conscience. Only when council decisions follow scripture do Protestants consider them authoritative. Nevertheless Protestant observers have officially attended the last two councils. The ecumenical movement among Protestants is not to be confused with an ecumenical council, although they share a similar aim.
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Protestants recognize the authority of the first four ecumenical councils, but, as first expressed by Martin Luther, do not regard ecumenical councils and their canons as binding on the conscience.

Where have I heard a similar statement? Oh yes, the SSPX, with regard to Second Vatican Council !

14 posted on 05/04/2003 6:46:14 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: NYer
Where have I heard a similar statement? Oh yes, the SSPX, with regard to Second Vatican Council !

What part of dogmatic versus pastoral council do you not understand?

31 posted on 05/04/2003 7:41:15 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: NYer; Aloysius; ninenot; ultima ratio
Vere has conveniently forgotten the infallible decree issued by Eugene IV at the Council of Florence, as a result of the re-union agreed by the majority of the Council fathers (both Latin and Greek), :

"The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire "which was prepared for the devil and his angels," (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this Ecclesiastical Body, that only those remaining within this unity can profit from the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

Additionally the Council of Trent (as you are no doubt all aware), although it invited the Protestants to take part in order to settle the disputed doctrines (men who were still in valid Catholic orders), was equally authoritative in the condemnation of their errors.

Contrast the above infallible decree of the Council of Florence with the ambiguous twaddle (in no way declared to be binding on all the faithful) issued in V2's decree on ecumenism:

"The brethren divided from us also carry out many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. In ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or community, these liturgical actions most certainly can truly engender a life of grace, and, one must say, can aptly give access to the communion of salvation" (UR 3c).

It is notable that the English bishops (under Cardinal Godfrey) had requested along with many other bishops that the Protestant observers be excluded from some of the Council's sessions, in order that the bishops could discuss the issues freely without fear of embarrassment or compromise. The modernists under Cardinal Bea prevailed as they did in so many things.

IMHO the above statement of V2 is the one that is most difficult to reconcile with previous definitive teaching. But as has been said before, no claim is made for the dogmatic status of this document. The main aim of the decree on ecumenism was to set out Catholic pastoral policy towards separated brethren, and as such any comments that touch on matters of faith or morals were very much secondary. Pastoral policy has never been considered to be immune from error and consequently cannot be binding on the faithful.

If Peter Vere or anyone else can show how the above statements of the Council of Florence and Vatican II are reconcilable, then they are a far greater spin doctor than I.

He also seems to be unaware of the principle set out at Vatican I:

"The meaning of Sacred Dogmas, which must always be preserved is that which our Holy Mother the Church has determined. Never is it permissible to depart from this in the name of a deeper understanding." (Vatican I, Session III, Chap. IV, Faith and Reason.)
38 posted on 05/05/2003 5:08:26 AM PDT by Tantumergo
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