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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
The church is not a place where God's truth is accomodated to the culture. Rather it is a place where God's people come have their lives altered by the truth.

The church is not a place at all, it is the Christian people, as you correctly defined it earlier in your post.

You seem to be claiming that believers should meet to worship, and learn, and basically continue the process of sanctification. I agree, but I question whether that is all.

Where should evangelism occur? Let's list the possibilities:
Crusades: widely dissed already on this thread
During church meetings: you claim these are for the edification of the saved
School: lol
workplace: maybe, depends
Neigborhood: sure... but, how does that work? What do you do? Tell them the truth straight up, even though they won't understand half the words you use, and consider them evangelized? Or do you somehow manage to get them to listen long enough for you to explain it all fully? How do you accomplish that? Or, do you invite them to attend church?

If an unsaved person starts attending your church, are you supposed to kick them out? Maybe that is God's providence, to make it so easy for you to exercise the great commission without even getting up out of the pew... Gosh, now that I think about it, there are probably a LOT of unsaved people sitting in worship services on Sunday morning, right? And you're telling me they should be asked not to return? Or, that the church should ignore their need to be evangelized?
52 posted on 05/07/2003 7:34:34 AM PDT by FactQuest
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To: FactQuest
The church is not a place at all, it is the Christian people, as you correctly defined it earlier in your post.

We are also physical beings existing in time-space, the church is also a location, a "place". Whether it is only in a building set aside for that purpose, i will leave for you to decide to your satisfaction.

You seem to be claiming that believers should meet to worship, and learn, and basically continue the process of sanctification. I agree, but I question whether that is all.

Of course that's "all". And if you consider what is the totality of the things you mention, i'd say that is quite a responsibility. One reservation however: Sanctification happens day-to-day, minute-to-minute, and is not limited to the worship service (we do have lurkers, let's be a bit more precise!)

Where should evangelism occur? Let's list the possibilities:
Crusades: widely dissed already on this thread
During church meetings: you claim these are for the edification of the saved
School: lol
workplace: maybe, depends

Perhaps some of our problem is in how we understand terms:
CRUSADES:

1)Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
2) As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
Acts 13:1-2 KJV

What we do see is that the Church confirms a call and sends out messengers, call them apostles, missionaries, evangelists, what ever.

CHURCH MEETINGS/WORSHIP SERVICE:
The fact is that there are unsaved members in the church. Families have unsaved members who attend. You may recall the parable of the wheat and the tares. The Lord commanded that they be allowed to grow up together. The problem is discerning which is which. Pretty hard to do, because wheat and tares look quite a bit alike until they mature, then it is easy to see which is which. It has always been understood that there are two churches: The visible church, consisting of both saved and unsaved professing or baptised members, and the invisible church, consisting of all true believers living and dead in all ages. The providence of God is such that unsaved members do come to salvation in the Church. i have no problems with the gospel being presented inside the church. We do not however, accomodate our worship to the whims of the unsaved...i.e., we don't do God-Light.

THE REST OF THE LIST:

1) I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2) Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine.
II Timothy 4:1-2 KJV

Neigborhood: sure... but, how does that work? What do you do? Tell them the truth straight up, even though they won't understand half the words you use, and consider them evangelized? Or do you somehow manage to get them to listen long enough for you to explain it all fully? How do you accomplish that? Or, do you invite them to attend church?

15) But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
16) Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evil doers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
I Peter 3:15-16 KJV

We don't seem to see that any more do we? It seems to beg a question, namely do we have anything different to observe? With the divorce rate as high or higher in the churches as in the general society, white collar crime, immorality by both clergy and laymen, and preaching more Rush Limbaugh than Christ, why would anyone be interested, it doesn't seem to have changed our lives for the better?

Once again, the indictment lays squarely in the camp of the new methods crowd, from the time of Finney on in this nation. The church has sold out to marketing and methods, and the solution given for the obvious weaknesses is to do more of the same. It sounds much like the social engineers of the last 50 years: "The reason our programmes are failing is because we haven't done enough of them". Three denominations can't even remove obvious heretics from their midst.

i have already addressed your last paragraph above.

53 posted on 05/07/2003 9:22:49 AM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (" Ya don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows")
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