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To: jude24; Corin Stormhands
That was his sin, but not of 'rushing to shed blood', not 'a mouth full of cursing' You don't "rush to shed blood"? I doubt that.... Remember -- mere anger (without cause) is considered in the same breath as murder (Mat. 5:21)-- because anger is the mens rae of murder. If we could get away with it, there are times when we would all kill. The fact that the fear of the law restrains us does not speak in our favor.

Did it say that he sinned in those ways. I read that he stated that he kept the commandments and the Lord did not correct him on it!

What the Lord did was reveal where his sin was, in greed.

God never leaves man to 'his own devices' but has made Himself clear to man through nature so that man may respond to God's drawing (Psa.19, Rom.1) That is certainly not true:

It's not?

Then why does the Bible say that in Romans 1 that God has revealed Himself and that is the reason they are without excuse?

11 And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12 so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN." -- Mk. 4:11-12 [NASB] Hiding the gospel so that people may not turn and be forgiven? Revealing it only to a select few (in this case the 12)? Leaving the rest to their own devices? Sure sounds like what's happening here. (Incidentally, this verse always confused me as a little kid, when I encountered it. Why wouldn't God want everyone to turn and be forgiven? But few little kids encounter Romans 9-11.)

First, the fact is the Jew had rejected their Messiah, that is why they were 'hardened', as all are who reject the truth.

Romans says that they knew God, now how about that!

But since they refused to worship God, turned them over to a reprobate mind (vs.24).

Thus, it was their rejection that resulted in that reprobate mind, not that they had it at the start!

Finally, Israel shut her eyes her own eyes (Matt.13:15) 'for their eyes have they closed'

God also states in Romans 10:21 that He is pleading with the Jews.

He also wept over their rejection (Matt.23), a strange thing to do if it were God that made them reject His Son.

What [the opposite] states is that man has to reject God's drawing of them via nature and finally the Cross, but not all men do, some respond (such as Cornilus) and thus are saved. So why are some being saved and some rejecting it? Are those saved more devout or more spiritually attuned, so that they are more receptive? Or perhaps they're smarter? Or less evil?

No, they are more open to the truth and obedient to it.

No, those that are saved are such without any merit of their own.

Who said there was 'merit' in faith?

The merit lies in the object of the faith, not the one having the faith, the merit lies in the one giving the gift, not the one receiving it. (Rom.4:4-5)

Or, in the words of Scripture, For who maketh thee to differ one from another? And what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? 1 Cor. 4:6 [AV] Contextually, this refers to the Corinthians, who were proud of their wealth and power, but the premise still holds.

No, it had to do with the Corinthians divisions over spiritual gifts and schisms over following particular men.

The 'wealth' that Paul is discussing is 'spiritual wealth', not economic wealth.

Thus, you are left with a abitrary God, who acts contrary to what Scripture reveals Him to be, one who takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.(Ezek.33:11) Ezekiel refers to physical death as judgment.

And if one died as a judgment were they still saved (Exod.33:32)

Moreover, you still have 1Tim.2:4 and 4:10 to deal with.

REgarding eternal states, Romans already makes clear that God chooses based upon His counsel alone. I doubt it's arbitrary, but it's certainly not because of any merit on the part of the elect:

Well, here is a flash for you!

If it is not 'arbitrary' it must be based on something in the object then right?

Now all men are equally guilty before God, and God states that He is not a respector of persons, yet you state that you 'doubt that it is arbitrary!

As for Romans, it says nothing about unconditional election to salvation, it is speaking about Israel in Romans 9-11 and there are even Calvinists who acknowledge that fact. So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. - Rom 9:18 So, because he is born in sin and in Total depravity he hates God, rejects God, and is condemned by God, yet, never had a chance to accept God since God did not give him the irresistable grace that those who are saved get.

And according to Calvinists man is still responsible for this?

Now, how did man find himself in this 'totally depraved' state?

Did not God put Adam into sin (for God's glory)

Your system makes God the author of the very thing He hates, sin.

Finally, what the first Adam did, the Second Adam undid (Rom.5)

Grace is greater then sin.

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory. - Rom 9:19-23 [NASB] It's there in black and white; you just refuse to see it.

I was wondering how long before Rom.9:20 would show up!

It took about three posts!

Now, go and find the historical context of those verses (Israel and Esau Mal.1).

Romans 9-11 is speaking about the nation of Israel, not individual salvation or damnation.

723 posted on 05/05/2003 3:24:08 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: fortheDeclaration
No, they are more open to the truth and obedient to it.

And why, pray tell, is this?

Moreover, you still have 1Tim.2:4 and 4:10 to deal with.

And we have done so ad nauseum. The Greek language is not as precise in its use of the universal as English. Pas does not necessarily mean "Each and every single one," but can also mean "all kinds, without distinction." That is the sense in I Tim. 2:4 and 4:10.

I was wondering how long before Rom.9:20 would show up!

That's because Romans 9-11 is something the Armininan simply cannot explain. To say it speaks only of national groups is just a flight of fancy. ("God's dispensational dealings with Israel" was the line I used when I fought against Calvinism. It was crap then, and its crap now.)

Tell me, how can this speak of "God's dispensational dealings with Israel?"

5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
-- Rom 11:5-7.
This speaks of individuals being elected, and thus, it cannot be held that Romans 9-11 speaks of "nations."
724 posted on 05/05/2003 12:49:28 PM PDT by jude24 ("Facts? You can use facts to prove anything that's even REMOTELY true!" - Homer Simpson)
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