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To: rwfromkansas; Corin Stormhands
I disagree. The depravity of man is the foundation of Calvinism, for if you belive in that, you have to wonder "well, since man is depraved, how can he get saved?" It gets you to thinking about your idea that perhaps our depravity really has no meaning anymore and we can choose God. But, without any Scripture back-up, that leaves even more questions and disturbing ponderings...and leads ultimately to God being in charge of the whole process.

So, how do you jump from depravity to the conclusion that God cannot give a choice to a spritually dead person?

Wesley believed that a unregenerate was totally helpless until God gave him prevenient grace, which he could then reject or accept.

Your view of depravity comes from your view of Unconditonal election, that one can not choose to receive or reject God because God has already made that choice in eternity from His own sovereign will.

The issue is Unconditional election which is turn built on the secret will of God, that somehow the Calvinists have figured out, even though it is not in Scripture (being secret)

429 posted on 04/28/2003 1:53:30 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: fortheDeclaration
"So, how do you jump from depravity to the conclusion that God cannot give a choice to a spritually dead person?"

Who ever said that?

What we say is that according to the revealed Word of God, he chooses to glorify himself by leaving mankind in sin and plucking from the pit a large number of his own choosing.
431 posted on 04/28/2003 1:56:59 PM PDT by rwfromkansas (God Reigns!)
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