The Theology of John Calvin

http://www.markers.com/ink/bbwcalvin2.htm ^ | Benjamin B. Warfield (1851-1921)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

God doesn't unremember anything. These are word games men play to test the shape and expanse of God. But God is limitless.

God can't "forget" anything because He has total and complete knowledge of everything.

We may see this as a contradiction, but I don't think God sees it that way.

All men are fallen and all men's sins were known to God from before time.

But through His gracious gift of salvation, God still has chosen His elect to spend eternity with Him, all the while knowing every sin each one has ever committed or will commit.

He doesn't forget our sins; He forgives them.

You're right, Seven_O. If He needed any prompting, God could always check the Bible to remind Him who's who. 8~)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Bump to you, too.

[rwfromkansas]

True. I did not mean to say that Calvin did not have any weight (despite his banishment). But, he had no official power.

[P-Marlowe]

Please explain how Calvin roasted a man he did not have the authority to execute....

Post from 7/26/01 on this subject

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I'm sorry, but I still view questioning the concept of God "blotting out names in the Book of Life" as allegorical license.

When read with the New Testament, Election becomes obvious.

ROMANS 8:30 -- Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.

[so_real]

... He has total and complete knowledge of everything.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

As you said in post #578, He's either God, or He's not. It's another paradox. I resolve it by speculating that God chooses what He is aware of and when He is aware of it. How do you resolve this paradox?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

It's only a paradox to us.

Nothing is a paradox to God.

Calvin offered good advice. He suggested not dwelling on the incomprehensibles, but rather concentrate on glorifying God through obediance, fruitfulness and gratitude.

[JesseShurun]

All that is written, yet Jesus had come and fulfilled the Law. He had a chance to condemn a woman to stoning yet he opened the potential stoners minds to a higher understanding. Paul had no excuse. By rejecting Christ and His teachings, he committed murder.

[JesseShurun]

John 6:29

[so_real]

The two verses preceding Romans 8:30 have lead me to believe Paul was referring to those who had been called for the special purpose of teaching others about the Father, just as the Son did while on Earth. (As I said before, I believe God keeps His promises and forordaining teachers may be a tool toward that goal.)

Romans 8:28-29 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."

I can re-read these verses through your eyes (I think) and see an equally valid interpretation that would provide justification for the salvation only of an elect group. But then I would have to ignore the other verses we've quoted that indicate everyone has an equal opportunity to salvation, a very real choice has been given and must be made, and that some will choose poorly and consequently be removed from the Book. I'm not ready to ignore all that, but you have peaked my curiousity in Romans. Perhaps my understanding there is *not* complete. I will honor your point and dig further into that chapter. Thank you! My curiousity is insatiable and you have fed it!

[so_real]

It's only a paradox to us. Nothing is a paradox to God. Calvin offered good advice. He suggested not dwelling on the incomprehensibles, but rather concentrate on glorifying God through obediance, fruitfulness and gratitude.

Doh! Does that mean you won't answer my question? Okay :-) I won't push for an answer. But you did say that God can't "forget" anything because He has total and complete knowledge of everything, and I have provided Biblical verse that directly contradicts this. At least do me the honor of setting this aside for some later noodling and re-addressing it at a future date. I credit to your Calvinistic nature the love of a good paradox. I am genuinely interested in your take on this.

[Seven_0]

"Can you explain further? Thanks!

If God was going to un-remember something, why would he write it down first?

"It's another paradox. I resolve it by speculating that God chooses what He is aware of and when He is aware of it. How do you resolve this paradox?

You do not resolve something by speculating.

[so_real]

John 6:29

Thanks :-)

[JesseShurun]

my pleasure

[Seven_0]

"Calvin offered good advice. He suggested not dwelling on the incomprehensibles, but rather concentrate on glorifying God through obediance, fruitfulness and gratitude."

How do you know when something is incomprehensible?

[so_real]

If God was going to un-remember something, why would he write it down first?

There is a mystery there! More noodling to do.

You do not resolve something by speculating.

True, I'm sure I could have worded that better. But you get my meaning, right?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You're the most polite poster to these threads. We can all learn from you. 8~)

everyone has an equal opportunity to salvation.

But of course, they don't. Reality shows us that that poor old Bushman we keep trotting out will live and die without hearing the name of "Jesus."

JOHN 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Life isn't fair, from our perspective.

From God's perspective, it is all as He wishes it to be.

There was a great old MGM movie called "My Brother Talks to Horses." In it, Spring Byington, the grandmother, consoles Butch Jenkins, the young boy, by assurring him, "Everything is happening just the way it's supposed to happen."

I love that line. All glory to God.

[JesseShurun]

An old Egyptian proverb (that sounds a lot like Mr. Brady) says "Where you are, is where God wants you to be."
The Bushman will be judged by another set of rules, and by God looking at his heart. One of us is going to get a kick in the pants for not reaching that Bushman

[Law]

John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John Chapter 6 is one of the most interesting chapters in the Bible. It starts with Jesus attracting a crowd of 5,000 men (which he all fed) and ends with just twelve disciples. What happened? Wasn't Jesus "seeker sensitive" like so many politically correct churches of today? Didn't he meet the "felt needs" of his audience? Surely his preaching was peerless. Then why didn't he have a larger harvest?

Perhaps because "No one can come to [him] unless it is granted by the Father." [Romans 6:65] Perhaps because all the seekers there were seeking something (such as entertainment, and Jesus declined to build a church gym) besides the Kingdom of God. So when they heard the "hard saying[s]; who can listen to [them]?" [6:60], they "grumbled" and turned away.

In the end, when the people were faced with the fullness of Christ's doctrine (not just the more comfortable, easy-to-accept teachings), every man dead in sin chose to turn away. Only the Twelve remained. And they remained not because they were wiser than their peers in recognizing and believing that Jesus "ha[s] the words of eternal life." [6:68] but because, as Jesus gently corrected, he had first chosen them: "Did I not choose you, the Twelve?" [6:70]

That Jesus added, "And yet one of you is a devil," is clear expression of God's sovereign election: He chooses some to be saved and some to be damned. This is a "hard saying," of course, but some truths are supposed to be hard, in order to separate the wheat from the chaff, to purify the church

Too bad so few pastors today realize that a handful of faithful disciples is much to be preferred over thousands of marginal believers who will just move on to the next church when the going gets tough.

[BTW, eternal thanks to Bob Godfrey for teaching me about John 6. However, any errors in the above explanation are completely my own.]

[Seven_0]

"everyone has an equal opportunity to salvation.

"But of course, they don't. Reality shows us that that poor old Bushman we keep trotting out will live and die without hearing the name of "Jesus."

I'm just speculating, but I fear that the wealth in the United States may be a greater stumblingblock than the ignorance of the Bushman.

Esth 4:13-14 Then Mordecai commanded to answer Esther, Think not with thyself that thou shalt escape in the king's house, more than all the Jews. For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this.

God will take care of the Bushman too. Can you imagine someone missing out on salvation because of our failure?