Posted on 04/19/2003 7:32:39 AM PDT by drstevej
It is that Calvinism starts out with Unconditional election then builds it theology around that, that makes it impossible for man to have a choice.
God is omnipotent and can easily give man the ability to choose to accept or reject Him.
He talks with spiritually dead people (Gen.4, 20, Acts.10,) and they understand Him.
But allowing a choice, is something that the Calvinist maintains is beyond God's power?
No, you believe it is not God's will to do so, a 'will' that you maintain is a secret one and thus 'inscruptiable'.
Yet, you build an entire theological structure around a 'will' that is not revealed in Scripture.
Amen!
As if man's 'badness' could negate God's Goodness.(Rom.5)
Only man's rejection can do that, then man faces God's wrath, instead of receiving God's free gift of love (Jn.3:36,Rom.6:23)
Now, why according to Calvin, did man fall in the first place?
God wanted him to!
So we go right back to Unconditional election.
Arminians are not Pelagians, they accept the reality that man is helpless after the Fall and needs grace to save him.
The only difference is that they see that man can reject that grace, just as a born again Calvinist can reject God's grace and sin.
So, how do you jump from depravity to the conclusion that God cannot give a choice to a spritually dead person?
Wesley believed that a unregenerate was totally helpless until God gave him prevenient grace, which he could then reject or accept.
Your view of depravity comes from your view of Unconditonal election, that one can not choose to receive or reject God because God has already made that choice in eternity from His own sovereign will.
The issue is Unconditional election which is turn built on the secret will of God, that somehow the Calvinists have figured out, even though it is not in Scripture (being secret)
Still waiting on an Arminian or non calvinist answer to my question
Does the God who foreknows with certainity, who knows who will choose Him from before the creation of the earth , so He can then choose them also foreknow with certainity all those that will never choose Him ?
Yet knowing that the ones that will never choose Him are certain fodder for the flames of hell still make them?
Is that "fair"
He could not make them ,so they never have to burn , or add a little more grace or change the circumstances so they can be saved in their own will..
But He makes them for the purpose of hell
YES or NO ??
i have to hand it to you Marlowe, you're a pretty good lawyer, and you can certainly manipulate the argument into a pre-determined direction.
In the interest of being fair, let us examine the question from a broader perspective. Lucifer was created perfect in all of his ways until iniquity was found within him. He fell and took 1/3 of the heavenly host with him in rebellion. His end is absolutely determined if you believe Revelation. He has no hope of redemption what so ever. So, here is what we must look at. How does a perfect being have iniquity within him if iniquity does not exist? Where does the evil come from? Does a Holy, Loving, Just, Sovereign God create Evil?. The revelation of scripture is that Christ, God the Son, has created all things, does that include evil?
This leads to another question: If God is Holy, how is it POSSIBLE for Him to Create Evil? How can God possibly be Holy if He created Evil? How then can God possibly exist if evil exists? And if Evil did not come from God, then the scriptures that say that the Lord has created all things, even the evil for the day of wrath, MUST be incorrect, and Somebody else created evil. Then it follows that God cannot be sovereign if somebody else had to create evil. If that is the case, WE CANNOT RELY ON THE TESTIMONY OF SCRIPTURE, BECAUSE IT IS DEMONSTRABLY IN ERROR ON THIS POINT.
So, i throw your question back in your face Marlowe, DID GOD CREATE EVIL, YES OR NO?
i anxiously await your answer.
Way to go, you saw off the branch that holds you up.
That is so funny. Here you claim the love of Christ in your life, (something an Arminian could never understand) and you claim that you are now dead to sin and that you are living a new life in Christ that you were supposedly incapable of living before you were allegedly born again, and that this change is due solely to the fact that you are now one of God's elect, and THEN you call me a "moron"? Do you not know that (according to your theology) if I am unable to understand your theological gibberish it is because God made me that way and made me incapable of thinking in any other way than in a way that you (as God's elect) see as being moronic. Do you dare to call one of God's creatures a moron knowing that God is the potter and that creature is the clay and the God made that creature to act exactly as he is acting? Is that not then an insult to God?
RW, you'd better do a word study here. Moron is from the greek word "Moros" and is the english equivalent of the KJV for "fool" in Matthew 5:22.
Now did Jesus make you call me a moron? Is that an example of Christ living in you?
Mat 5:22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, [moros] shall be in danger of the hell of fire.
Better watch your mouth. Or in this case, watch your fingers. God is watching. And somehow God did not seem to have full control of your fingers, unless you can honestly say that God made you call me a moron. If he did, then maybe he did it as a warning. To you.
Clearly you have a hard time reading clear English my good Doctor!
It says that the 'god of this world hath blinded those who believe not', not could not believe, which would make blinding them a pretty redundent effort is it not?
Why 'blind' someone who already can't see!
The fact is that Calvinism starts with an unscriptural premise (unconditional election) and twists scripture to fit it.
***But allowing a choice, is something that the Calvinist maintains is beyond God's power?*** GOD BINDS HIMSELF TO DO THAT WHICH PLEASES HIMSELF. Psa. 115:3But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
As I said, the issue isn't what man is able to do or not do, but what the Calvinists think God has decided to do.
***Yet, you build an entire theological structure around a 'will' that is not revealed in Scripture.*** OBVIOUSLY YOU IGNORE SCRIPTURE WHEN POSTED BY CALVINISTS [even when we use the king jimmy]. MOST OF YOUR QUESTIONS IN THIS POST ARE OF A SPECULATIVE OR INFERRENTIAL BASIS.
Now, how many Calvinist theologians do you want me to cite who have to fall back on God's secret will (or words to that effect?)
See, once again back to Unconditional election.
Now, why are some chosen and some not?
Secret will !
And where does it say that we would always resist that grace unless God forced us to believe?
I see in Acts 10-11 an unsaved man seeking God and God leading him to where he can find salvation.
Why do we still resist that same grace now after salvation if it so 'irresistable'?
His work is the reason for the change.
Yes, it is God's work but we must yield to it willingly
Then stop. Does God need you for this task? Are you that important? After all, those whom you think are "obstinate hearers" were made that way by God, were they not? Is not God in control? Is God helpless without RW spreading the truth to the obstinate?
Your anger should be at God for making everyone so darned obstinate. Then again, maybe it should be directed at you... for being so wrong.
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