Do babies go to Heaven?

[PFKEY]

Hope no one minds the vanity too much.

I was thinking last night about this idea and was trying to make it jive somewhat with the notion of predeterminationalism if that is the correct word.

Also was curious regarding what the various Christian denominations taught on this subject.

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

W,
we share the same characteristics and age. The fact is that our bodies are much like an SUV in that it takes a great deal of energy input to power us, heavier people being more efficient. It follows that we do need the calories in order to generate requisite body heat, not having the insulating fat layers. Sausage, Onions and pineapple are mortal sins however.

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

Regretabbly, although i do have a basic understanding of the term theotokos, i do not have a syntactical understanding as the term is not in the text of the NT, and is outside of the scope of my normal reading. Although my Greek is fluent, it is the Koine of the NT and the LXX that i read. While i could probably get by fine with an Athens newspaper, i can only understand about every fifth word in conversation, not being able to correspond the written word with the spoken word. In short, i am afraid that neither i nor anyone else fluent in NT Greek would be able to help you. You would have to find someone fluent in eccliastical, Byzantine Greek.

[George W. Bush]

Sausage, Onions and pineapple are mortal sins however.

Oh, thanks. I like my Freschetta pizzas with extra pepperoni and pineapple. A secret shame I had previously concealed...

The fact is that our bodies are much like an SUV in that it takes a great deal of energy input to power us, heavier people being more efficient.

Some admirably bold and sinewy argument there. I'll have to remember it for future reference...

I only look like I don't eat enough. Most people would weigh 400 pounds if they ate what I eat. Oh well, it'll catch up with me as I get older and my metabolism slows, as is generally the case.

i am the one who is most intimidated, as much of my journey has been the task of "reinventing the wheel". i did not come from a creedal or confessional background. God's grace lead me to the truths of the Reformation by virtue of the abilities He gave to understand the Scriptures. While i have some creedal and confessional knowlege today, i am woefully inadequate in this area, and still have to derive much of what i know from scripture.

Looking to scripture is no liability, my FRiend. It's commendable. You are far better served by what you call "re-inventing the wheel" because you now possess that knowledge scripturally and personally, not merely upon the words or thinking of mere theologians or the great preachers. The inward hold of the Word of God can never be trumped by the words of men grasped in a merely intellectual manner.

Your "liability" serves you well. It forces you to live sola scriptura, exactly that thing advocated and fought for by the great leaders and theologians of the Reformation. You are essentially in unity with them and their beliefs. If we ever make them into the popes of our beliefs, then they have failed. They desired each of us to hold the scripture personally.

[MarMema]

You would have to find someone fluent in eccliastical, Byzantine Greek.

Well I will ask and let OP/you know what I am told, all the same. We have a bible study class starting this Sat and I am anxious to attend, a good place to ask.
That Byzantine Greek would be pretty difficult to find, though. :-)

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

Byzantine Greek shoul be easy to find in the EO church as most of the documents from the middle ages is written in that form of the language. It is called Eccliastical Greek for just that reason, as it is more stylistic and liturgical than was the vernacular Koine of the NT. i am certain that you must have a multitude of scholars and perhaps even your Priests must have some knowlege of it.

[fortheDeclaration]

Innocent Before God by Dallas Witmer


How does God see the salvation of children? What is His Plan to bring them to conversion?

Salvation is the keynote of the New Testament. Peter sounds this familiar tone in his words, “The Lord is...not willing that any should perish.” John 3:16 makes clear the remedy the Lord provided: “He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish.”

A sinful, ruined human race is called to salvation through belief in Jesus Christ, repentance from dead works, and the confession of his lordship. He has provided for its salvation through His own sacrificial death and shed blood on the cross. “The blood of Jesus Christ...cleanseth us from all sin” (I John 1:7).

All parents that are truly Christians are deeply interested in seeing all their children saved. They will do all they can toward their salvation. Even those adhering to false religions are concerned for their children’s spiritual safety. Many are careful to baptize each child in infancy; for this, they are told, will insure safe conduct to heaven. Others hope and pray that their infants be not among those created to be damned.

Enlightened Christians rest assured that their young children are safe. They carefully instruct and discipline these tender souls, enlightening them on the eternal principles of God and his laws. With this training and environment, children are favored with the best opportunities to decide for Christ when they reach personal accountability.

Why such a wide range of opinion and practice on the matter of child salvation by people who all claim the New Testament as the basis for their convictions? Satan understands the importance of childhood. If he can confuse the minds of parents on how to bring their children safely to accountability, and confuse the minds of the children on whether or not they are safe, he will certainly have diseased the tender sprout and corrupted the gardener before the plant blossoms to the glory of its Maker.

Thank God, His word is clear on the subject of child salvation. Those who will inherit eternal life are the saved and the safe, none other. “Except you be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew18:3). “Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God” (Mark 10:14). These words from he mouth of our Saviour Himself make it clear that only children and the childlike will enter heaven.

We believe that all humanity, including little children, was doomed, cursed under sin (Romans 5:12). It was, in part, a compassion for unaccountable children that moved Jesus to die, thus assuring their salvation. Salvation is imputed to them (verses 15, 18), not because they have accepted it but because they have not rejected it, nor can they. He took them in his arms. He did not seek a commitment of them. In contrast, Jesus was constantly confronting adults with the need to commit themselves: “Follow me”; “Repent”; “Sell that thou hast, and give to the poor”; “Ye must be born again.” But He took up the little children just as they were. He “put his hands upon them, and blessed them” (Mark 10:16). Christ’s blessing never rests upon sinners.

Christ’s teaching on child salvation has been honored by His disciples in the founding of the church and by the faithful of God throughout history since then. So perfectly innocent are children that Christ set them up as a pattern for what adults must become to be converted. He said, “Be born again” -- it is the only way to become childlike. “Become as little children.” And as a code of conduct, Paul said, “In malice be ye children” (1 Corinthians 14:20).

We now arrive at he much-disputed issue of when a child ceases to be covered by Christ’s imputed salvation. With one voice, most evangelicals will acknowledge that the newborn infant is safe. But opinion divides when some seeks commitments as soon as the child can verbalize the words, “I believe”; others prefer to wait until he can intelligently express what it means to believe; and still others wait until later youth when the individual has personally experienced the weight of guilt for responsibly committed sin. There are many other shades of opinion.

A study of human nature and development reveals four basic stages through which mankind passes: infancy, childhood, adolescence and adulthood. Studying the subject from a spiritual perspective, it soon becomes obvious that the call of the Spirit, the prerequisite for conversion, is sent to the mature mind. Variations of intelligence and accumulated knowledge of God’s laws may bear upon the timing of the call. But, above all, it must be remembered and will be observed that the timing is altogether God’s prerogative. Some faithful Christians testify to having received the call and been converted as early as adolescence or just prior to it. Many others feel that, despite earlier professions and baptism, conversion by the Bible definition came about in later youth.

The two dangers that concern us are the premature decisions and procrastination. The two at times become two phases of the same problem. Many youth of Christian parentage, some church members and others not, are resisting the Spirit’s call to discipleship. Resistance always results in hardness. Meanwhile, parents and church leaders wait out this “immaturity”, not expecting the Gospel standard of discipleship until they become adults.

This is not the standard for the Christian congregation. It is an aberration. It is not the standard for a Christian upbringing. Sound discipline and teaching, with proper care for associations, will avert much evil that is sadly considered standard for youth in many churches. A well-disciplined congregation provides youth with a church home that daily witnesses before them that the Gospel is real -- that men and women can live the laws of God by His transforming power. Child evangelism has flourished in the absence of disciplined homes.

We define child evangelism as “seeking to teach the deep things of God to minds which the Spirit as not yet awakened, and pressing such, emotionally or intellectually, into ‘conversion’ experiences.” This is the alternative widely used in lieu of proper child rearing. It is the culprit of many of our church problems. Leave infants, children and all unawakened youth under the sole guardianship of their parents. Make parents aware that the proper training of these, set their own soul’s salvation at stake. Let the church ever witness by example to the transforming power of the Gospel before them, but let her never accept the spiritual responsibility for the spoiled children or carnal youth of irresponsible parents by bringing them into the church without conversion.

Tragically, our children are fast becoming our mission field. When youth have felt the weight of responsibly committed sin, whether the sin be of the thoughts and motives, or words, or deeds, they ought also to feel the weight of vigilant parent’s, Christian friends’ and ministers’ fingers upon their spiritual pulse. And they ought to hear personalized appeals to their repentance. Much of this salutary effect is missing where the sons of Eli (undisciplined youths) have already tried “conversion” and the church has long since grown frustrated of trying to reform them. Let us not delay our evangelistic appeal to young sinners. “Let no man despise they youth.” God’s power is sufficient to make them examples “in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.”

All of God’s moral laws are to be enjoined upon children by their parents. The means are verbal instruction and accompanying physical discipline. In a Christian home the parental role in a child’s experience is similar to that of the Jewish Law, being a “schoolmaster to bring {them} unto Christ.” Children are required to do God’s laws, suffering painful consequences when they disobey. As a result, when they yield to the call of the Spirit, they begin a walk of life above the letter of the law of their parents. While innocent, they know about God, and can love and pray to God, band they know that because of God they need to obey their parents. However, they do not know God experientially, for His Spirit is not yet in them.

It seems a bit hypocritical and quite confusing to innocent minds to lead children to seek forgiveness of God for the already-forgiven sins of their innocence. After all, God has predisposed of their sins, and no amount of prayer will change the children’s standing. In the injunction “Children, obey your parents.” God makes children responsible to parents, at whose feet they can learn obedience to Him. When children disobey, their violations are to be handled by the parents by right of this command. The Bible method of child training teaches children right from wrong while not incriminating them as sinners. It is just as dangerous to grieve the Spirit by making sinners out of innocents as it is to “Christianize” the lost. If God counts children innocent, how can we justify bringing them to a sinner’s pose in seeking pardon of Him when their innocent lives are covered by the blood of Christ? Right concepts much be taught by right methods.

Parents who neglect to discipline consistently, but instead threaten the child with “God will punish you,” frustrate the child’s concept of God and holy fear. The child fears this punishment; but when God does not punish him immediately, he tends to doubt that He ever will. Parental punishment for disobedience relieves guilt on the part of the child and clears the parents in their responsibility before God. The parents, once having fulfilled this charge, must completely forgive the child for the wrong which he has done, thus molding the child’s concept of the forgiveness of God toward the penitent. The child can be led to pray to God for strength to overcome his particular weakness, but not for clearing from God for his act.

Child evangelism is a lazy way out of the parental responsibility to discipline. For once the child is converted, he becomes accountable; and sin and guilt become an issue between him and God. Right standing with God can then only be secured by repentance toward God and restitution with affected fellow men.

A child led to a so-called conversion experience before he actually reaches the age of accountability, thinks he is saved but does not experience victory over his sinful nature. When he reaches the age when God calls him, he becomes confused; for to his understanding, that was supposed to be past. Fortunate indeed are the few youths who actually come to understand what this “second” call is about and then respond to it in a real conversion experience.

Theoretically, “saving” children at the earliest age physically possible should certainly assure their salvation; but in practice, the very opposite is true. It hardens their conscience. It could seal their doom. “Whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea” (Matthew 18:6). Little children need no conversion. They need no baptism. They are safe.

We can only plead with parents to consider well the issues at stake when they bring children into the world. God will hold parents responsible for the training of their children and their safe conduct to the age of accountability. They will also be responsible as their closest counselors through the first year of their Christian experience til they leave parental protection and form homes of their own. By seeking divine help and knowing the facts of the Word of God, parents will be able to discharge their responsibilities well. So, parents, give diligence to teach and train your children well, according to God’s word, that they may understand and experience a right relationship with God and meet you in heaven.

http://www.honeycombhollow.com/tracts/innocent.html

[FormerLib]

Ok, I'll take the risk of blundering into an ongoing discussion here.

It is my understanding that the literal Greek translation of Theotokos is going to mean both "Mother" and "Bearer" because there really isn't normally a distinction when you are discussing human births.

The important thing to remember is the intent of the title. Clearly, the Son of God prexists Mary (In the beginning was the Word), so she is not His "Mother" in any sense of being a part of His creation.

She did bear Him into this world and is His human mother. This is the intent that makes distinguishing between "Mother" and "Bearer" quite meaningless in the Orthodox viewpoint.

Does that answer the question?

[FormerLib]

I smelled the odor of blood and, then, saw the Sacred Host still moving and changing into Flesh in the shape of a heart.

Oh yuk! And I just ate lunch.

I'll send you the bill for the Alka-Seltzer!

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

We start getting into mystery territory (a legitimate Christian grounds, as it is a biblical concept) on the realtion of Mary to the incarnation. What Christians have historically accepted on the natures of Christ is outlined in the Chalcadonian Creed. Perhaps a review of that is in order, particularly the alpha privitives. Christ, having humanity as an additional nature, makes the work of the theologian and the one who "studies to show himself approved" (he said redundantly!), difficult. None the less, not having a copy of the creed readily at hand, i hesitate due to fear of mistating.

[FormerLib]

Understood. I don't have a copy handy either so bear with my recollections.

The term Theotokos actually gained popularity after Chalcedon because it addresses both Christ's human nature (He had a mother) and His divine nature (He is God).

More honorable than the Cherubim, and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim: without defilement you gave birth to God the Word: true Theotokos, we magnify you.

Again, the meaning here is that she bore Him into this world, not that she created Him

[MarMema]

FL is a far more knowledgeable Orthodox Christian than I, and so I asked him to give your questions a shot, OP.

Thanks for coming and helping me out, FL.
Feel like tackling the other question from OP, about the wounded nature of man?

[FormerLib]

I think I missed the exact question but seeing it in your post reminded me of these words from the memorial service used in the Orthodox Faith.

I am an image of Your ineffable glory, though I bear the scars of my transgressions. On Your creation, Master, take pity and cleanse me by Your compassion. Grant me the homeland for which I long and once again make me a citizen of Paradise.

[RnMomof7]

Salvation is the keynote of the New Testament. Peter sounds this familiar tone in his words, “The Lord is...not willing that any should perish.”

But of course they do don't they ..such a hapless god

[fortheDeclaration]

Salvation is the keynote of the New Testament. Peter sounds this familiar tone in his words, “The Lord is...not willing that any should perish.” But of course they do don't they ..such a hapless god

Even Calvin admitted that 2Pet.3:9 was saying that and then had to run to a secret will thus, contradicting Scripture.

Therefore, either Scripture is correct or Calvinism is, they cannot both be.

Such a vain philosophy (Col.2:8)

[xzins]

God is not willing that any should perish.

Why can't we just say, "God cares." and leave it at that? Whether everything was preplanned or preknown, God knows the ill that will befall those who will be lost.

It is not inconsistent that He also cares.

I'll be honest with you. This Iraq attack by Pres. Bush and the military is going to take human lives....most of those killed are believers in a Godless system of Islam. They will die and go to hell.

Even though our troops knew they would kill us in a heartbeat, we always prayed for our enemies. We wouldn't gloat over them after the battle. Although they were decimated and destroyed, we still felt sorry for them. Even though our preplanning told us what would happen to them, and our foreknowledge told us what would become of them, it was not a happy thing. Our troops did what they had to do.

If I can do that, so can God.

You can both destroy your enemy, and you can HATE him for what he represents, BUT you can also feel sorry/care for him.

[fortheDeclaration]

You can both destroy your enemy, and you can HATE him for what he represents, BUT you can also feel sorry/care for him.

Amen!

The difference is that God (in Calvinism) could change man so that he would believe, but God will not.

If that is the case then statements on God's feeling sorry about the lost are empty and meaningless.

God gave man a choice to make and it is that sovereign decision on His part that God will not violate, even if it means the loss of those He would rather see saved.

Ye would not

[power2]

bump for later read

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

"The difference is that God (in Calvinism) could change man so that he would believe, but God will not."

"If that is the case then statements on God's feeling sorry about the lost are empty and meaningless."

"God gave man a choice to make and it is that sovereign decision on His part that God will not violate, even if it means the loss of those He would rather see saved."

The point is that man was already condemned in Adam, he committed sin in Adam as well as inherited a sin nature in Adam, so all of mankind is guilty and already deserves Hell, as per Romans 3:23.

If God chooses to show mercy to some who are already under judgement and condemnation, when He was under no obligation to show mercy to anyone, how is God unjust under that system?

[RnMomof7]

Point me at the scripture that ALL infants are saved...you take and bend all manner of scripture to make it fit ..but it does no say ALL infants are saved...point me to it

[RnMomof7]

I'll be honest with you. This Iraq attack by Pres. Bush and the military is going to take human lives....most of those killed are believers in a Godless system of Islam. They will die and go to hell.

Most of mankind is going to hell..Christ died for many not all or even most. Those that are His will hear the gospel and believe .God had no problem drowing the egyptian army..

We need to support those ministries that are putting the gospel on the airwaves and ask God to let them that are deceived have ears to hear it..But we need have no guilt about killing those that "might have been saved" .He will make sure the elect hear the Gospel and respond to His grace. No one will be lost to eternity by an act of man..Salvation is of our God!

Pastor no one was ever denied their salvation because of an act or failure of yours...God is sovereign