Posted on 12/17/2002 9:29:06 AM PST by Francisco
CORPSES IN THE VATICAN
ON 4 May 1998, twenty years after the mysterious death of John Paul I, Cedric Tornay, a twenty-three year old vice-corporal in the Vatican Swiss Guards killed his superior, Colonel Alois Estermann, and his wife Gladys with his regulation pistol. He then took his own life. The Colonel (seen here) was forty-four and had been promoted the day before to take command of the pontifical army.
At least that is the official version, issued barely three hours after the drama by Joaquin Navarro-Valls, the Vatican spokesman, and “confirmed” in February 1999: after a nine month inquiry, the Vatican promoter of justice concluded that «the Estermann couple had been killed by Vice-Corporal Tornay, who then immediately took his own life with the same regulation pistol.»
However, just as with John Paul I, no one saw anything, no one heard anything that took place that evening in the Estermanns’ apartment, situated just a few metres away from that of the Holy Father. But Cedric Tornay left a letter, addressed to his mother, in which he explains his act and begs her forgiveness.
When she read this document, Cedric’s mother, Muguette Baudat-Tornay, was stunned: not only was it not her son’s handwriting, but indications that he was not its author were only too obvious. In the top right-hand corner it read, «Vatican, 4.05.98». Mugette is categorical is about this: Cedric was in the habit of writing the name of the month in full, and furthermore he never used an initial zero to indicate the first nine months of the year. Another peculiar reference: that of «lieutenant-colonel» Estermann, when Cedric could not be unaware that he had just been promoted colonel. Similarly, he calls his sister «Melinda» when he used to call her Dada. He writes, «I took an oath to give my life for the Pope and that is what I am going to do.» Now, he always used to say «Holy Father» rather than «Pope».
Cedric Tornay’s mother therefore immediately let it be known that her son had been murdered: «The three people killed on 4 May last were the victims of a plot and the official version is full of deceit, contradictions and lies in order to hide a probably inadmissible truth.» She stated that she held «two documents of great importance in a safe place», which will «force the Vatican to tell the truth». According to her, «the Colonel [Estermann] had seen or knew something that he should not have seen or known.»
Finally, Mrs Tornay declares that «several people put pressure on me and tried to put me off my fight for the truth». The chaplain of the Swiss Guard, Mgr Jehle, even attempted to dissuade her from going to the Vatican to take part in her son’s funeral! Twice she tried to contact the Holy Father directly: through a formal request dated 18 September 1998, which remains unanswered, and then by a letter dated 8 July 1999, which has not received a reply either.
DENIAL OF JUSTICE
The Holy See’s announcement on 8 February 1999 that the matter was closed was accompanied by lengthy extracts from the report made by the lawyer Nicola Picardi, the Vatican promoter of justice, at the conclusion of his inquiry, to the examining judge, Gianluigi Marrone.
The received version of the facts is as follows: Cedric Tornay presented himself at the door of the Estermanns’ apartment, entered the living room and twice shot the colonel who was on the phone at the time. He then turned on Gladys Meza Romero, firing a third shot at her which missed her, before hitting her with a fourth shot. Finally, it was against himself that he fired his last shot.
One question: And did no one hear anything? Only two paces away from the Pope’s apartment?
No, no one. And we have had to wait four years for the affair to be revived.
On 27 April 2002, Jaques Vergès and Luc Brossollet, Mugette Baudat’s lawyers, gave a press conference at Martigny, in Switzerland, where Cedric Tornay is buried. Mr Brossollet explained that the regulation pistol which the Swiss Guard is supposed to have used to kill himself was a 9.42 mm Sigg, whereas the autopsy carried out on the vice-corporal’s body at his family’s request by the University of Lausanne’s Institute of Forensic Pathology, describes the bullet’s exit hole as corresponding to a 7 mm calibre.
That is not all: the autopsy reveals a fracture to a cranium bone, the petrosal bone, which was not on the bullet’s path, as well as the presence of blood and mucus inside the lungs, a substance which the body secretes when respiration is difficult. Cedric Tornay had therefore been struck on the head before being killed by a shot fired from a weapon with a calibre of 7 mm forced into his mouth, where it can be seen that the incisors have been broken by the firearm’s front sight. On the other hand, no trace could be found of the brain tumour which, according to the Vatican inquiry, was the cause of the Swiss Guard’s «behavioural disorders».
His mother therefore returned to Rome last July, accompanied by her lawyers, Vergès and Brossollet, in an attempt to have her case heard.
To journalists who asked her why she had come to Rome, she declared:
«The Vatican remains deaf to all our appeals. Is it surprising then that we are asking the press to echo our disillusion and our bitterness? We want the inquiry to be reopened which, on 5 February 1999, made my son out to be a homicide-suicide. The decree of the president of the court of appeals which rejected our request merely invited me to present my proofs to the tribunal, without the assistance of my lawyers. An unacceptable demand!
– Before you appealed to the press, did you take other steps? she was asked.
– On 11 April last, we wrote to the Holy Father in virtue of the law of January 2002 according to which, as head of State, he has the power to reopen an inquiry without the tribunal’s consent. To this day, we have received no response.
«Nor did the Vatican react to our press conference on 27 April, at Martigny.» (Il Tempo, 5 July 2002)
The next day, the Corriere della Sera spoke of «a plot that linked the double crime of an assassination attempt against the Pope and the disappearance of Emmanuelle Orlandi: “In this settling of scores, the lawyers point out, a junior Swiss Guard was sacrificed”.»
The Italian newspaper’s journalist continues:
«The accusations brought against the Vatican are very grave; since 1998, it has reputedly rejected on six occasions Mrs Baudat’s request that it study the sentence which declared her son guilty. “Contrary to the most elementary Christian charity, say the lawyers, the Pope himself has failed to reply to a mother in difficulty.” These accusations are “unacceptable and insulting”, retorts the Holy See.» (Corriere della Sera, 6 July 2002)
For us, all this has a strange sense of déjà vu, don’t you find? Three times over the last thirty years the Abbé de Nantes has gone to ask the Pope for justice, at ten yearly intervals, each time with the same total lack of success. With this difference, albeit very minor, in Mrs Tornay’s favour, although it leaves her under no illusions: in this case, the Holy See «announced the transfer of the file to the promoter of justice who, if there are good grounds, may decide to reopen the examination».
But, come now, there are no accepted grounds… Already, the Secretariat of State has sent a communiqué to the lawyers to inform them that «the Tornay case has been dealt with by the competent bodies». This official response reveals the Curia’s real concern: to dispel every suspicion in order to avoid the explosion of the powder keg that will be tripped by the revelation of the truth. Up to now, however, the Vatican magistrature holds that there are no grounds for instituting new proceedings. It is therefore likely that the lawyer Vergès will be led to do what he stated at the press conference of 27 April: «Should the Vatican persist in turning a deaf ear to our appeal, we will bring the matter before a Swiss tribunal, for Cedric Tornay was a Swiss citizen.» The media wonders:
«Will the French lawyer, a specialist in eminent trial cases, manage to convince and sway the Vatican authorities?» (L’Express, 27 June 2002) The question remains…
BLOOD LIES
Estermann’s predecessor at the head of the pontifical guard, Colonel Roland Buchs, was called back to duty the day after the triple murder to manage matters in the interim. He ordered that the deceased Vice-Corporal Cedric Tornay should be dressed in full uniform, and that his coffin should be placed next to those of his two presumed victims, in Saint Martin’ chapel transformed into a chapel of rest. L’Express of 27 June 2002 published a photo in which John Paul II can be seen praying before the three coffins. On the day of Cedric’s funeral, which took place on 7 May 1998 in Saint Anne’s Church, a squad of forty Swiss Guards paid their tribute, with the flag of the Guard, the sword-knots of honour and the drums. The soldiers intoned their farewell song: «I had a comrade.» Clearly, Colonel Buchs does not believe the “official version” according to which Cedric Tornay was an assassin, and what is more, a suicide! «Many questions remain unanswered, he says. I think that God knows the real truth, and the precise reasons behind this tragedy.»
He is not alone. Witness the string of resignations of two thirds of the non-commissioned officers: on 15 May 1998 the halberdier Christian Frangi quit the service; followed on 31 May by two colleagues, Christian Emmeneger and Frederico Schiuchetti. A month later, it was the turn of Corporals Michel Pfister and Hans Ulrich Eörtle, etc.
On 8 February 1999, the Holy See announced that the one hundred page report of the promoter of justice, Nicola Picardi, would remain confidential. However, it published excerpts tending to support the thesis of Tornay’s homicide-suicide. The communiqué of 10 February 1999, issued by the Catholic International Press Agency, clearly reflects these «conclusions of the inquiry»: after mentioning «the presence of a cyst in a part of the young man’s cranium, capable of explaining certain of his “behavioural problems”» – the first lie denounced by Lausanne’s forensic pathology authorities, as we have seen – «it also claimed that there was evidence to show that, although being a person who was generally “courteous and kind”, Cedric Tornay had frequently displayed signs of “peculiar” behaviour, characterised by bouts of “irresponsibility”, particularly with regard to his superiors, all of which indicates a “somewhat unbalanced” personality.
«Moreover, investigations have made it possible to state that he sometimes smoked cannabis. Finally, the testimony of the young Italian girl to whom he spoke on the telephone half an hour before the drama, has highlighted his excessive state of “anxiety” and “emotivity”, although he had been particularly active all day long despite suffering from a broncho-pneumonia.»
In short, the young man is presented as having acted under a sudden mad impulse, as being seriously ill and addicted to drugs.
His mother’s response: «He was a Swiss Guard. For that, he had to pass an entrance exam. Did the Vatican only come to realise all his defects after his death? They even went so far as to say that he was a homosexual… Ask Valéria, his fiancée, what she thinks of that! The Vatican has destroyed my Cedric.»
But the Vatican allows this woman no possibility of defending her son. Here again is something we know all too well: in contempt of the rights of the defendant, only the prosecution’s testimony is admitted…
Wholly different, and unambiguous, is the testimony of Cedric’s colleagues obtained by Italian journalists: «Cedric was an impeccable young man, with a good head on his shoulders. I have great difficulty imagining that he did this because of a medal he was denied.» An allusion to the press release according to which, «among the “objective” reasons cited in the extracts presented to the press, is essentially found that of the news of the nomination of Alois Estermann as the new commandant of the Swiss Guard, something which Cedric Tornay greeted with a “I couldn’t care a damn!”, the vice corporal considering that this “bad news” was compensated for by “the great news of a job in Switzerland” of which he had just received confirmation.
«Another so called “objective” reason for this act may have been the fact that he had just learned that he would not receive the medal of recognition he was expecting.»
So, furious at having been refused a decoration by Estermann for having returned forty-eight hours late from leave, Cedric Tornay kills him, shoots his wife and takes his own life. The proof? The letter, apparently! Cedric’s letter handed to his mother by Judge Gianluigi Marrone, a handwritten letter, in French, showing both location and date, of which here is the original text:
«Vatican 4-05-98
«Mama,
«I hope you will forgive me, for it is they who made me to do what I have done. This year I should have received the Benemerenti but the Lieutenant-Colonel refused to give it to me. After 3 years, 6 months and 6 days spent here putting up with all kinds of injustice, he refused to give me the only thing I wanted. I owe this duty to the remaining guards as well as to the Catholic Church. I took an oath to give my life for the Pope and that is what I am doing. Forgive me for leaving you all alone but my duty calls me. Tell sarah, Melinda and Papa that I love you all.
«A big kiss to the Greatest Mother in the World.
Your son who loves you»
According to the Holy See’s spokesman, Tornay entrusted this letter to one of his comrades, less than two hours before the crime. It was given to his mother on the afternoon of the funeral.
But on the same morning, someone had sent journalists a typed text in French, without reference to either place or date, but signed. Some daily newspapers published an Italian translation of this on 8 May:
«Mama,
«I hope you will forgive me but it is they who made me to do what I have done. This year I should have received the decoration (la “Benemerenti”) but the lieutenant colonel refused to give it to me. After three years, six months and six days spent here putting up with all kinds of injustices, they refused to give me the only thing I wanted. I owe this duty to all the guards as well as to the Catholic Church. I took an oath to give my life for the Pope and that is what I am doing. Forgive me for leaving you all alone but my duty calls me. Tell sarah, melissa and Papa that I love you.
Cedrich».
On 8 May, the Corriere della Sera’s well known Vaticanist, Luigi Accatoli, wrote, «that he had obtained the full text of the letter and had attempted – without much success – to verify its authenticity, but it seemed genuine to him». In this letter, we find that Cedric Tornay’s sister is wrongly called «Melissa» instead of «Melinda» as in the text given to Mrs Tornay… and the Corriere della Sera copied the error as it stood. We also note that the signature «Cedrich» distorts the first name «Cedric» in the manner that Italians or Germans would write it.
It is clear that the handing over of this strange text to the press had a precise objective: to provide unchallengeable “proof” of the official version drawn up by the Holy See, and to divulge its “revelatory” contents before the experts subsequently had a chance to establish its apocryphal character. By then, once the truth had been snuffed out, it would be too late to restore it, and sufficient time would have been bought for life to go on as previously and for public opinion to become passionate about other news events. By then, the Abbé de Nantes would be in a position to reconstruct the crime point by point and to expose its authors…, but it would be old news and, being in doubt, everyone would stick to their positions. That is why it was the height of clerical hypocrisy for the Secretary of the Swiss Episcopal Conference, Rolland Tauffer, to lyingly protest at Fribourg: «This letter is in the pocket of Cedric Tornay’s mother, a copy of it is in the hands of the Vatican judge, and no one else could have read its contents. I defend the right of this mother to keep this letter for herself».
The spelling mistakes are quite a good imitation of those that Cedric usually made, as his mother acknowledges. But the unusual error lies in the calculation of his time of service. Cedric enrolled on 1 December 1994: on 4 May 1998, therefore, only 3 years, 5 months and 3 days had passed… It looks like the letter had been written in view of an event planned for 7 June and that, as events had moved faster than expected, it had subsequently been dated 4 May.
We have stated that Cedric’s Mother considers this letter received from the hand of the Vatican magistrate to be a forgery. The wording of the date, the way Colonel Estermann is demoted to «lieutenant-colonel» and the name «Melinda» are already more than sufficient evidence. «Tell sarah, Melinda and Papa that I love you all.» And what about his half-brothers, Yvan and Joel of whom he was very fond? Why does he not name them? No doubt because the Vatican was unaware of their existence.
Expert graphologists from Switzerland confirm these suspicions: this letter was not written by Cedric. But the person who wrote it knew him well. At least in an administrative sense, for it is addressed to his mother under the name of “Chamorel”. Cedric never addressed a letter to her under this name, but always used her maiden name: Baudat. But “Chamorel” is the surname that appears on the Vatican registers. Well might the forger get confused, for the situation was a little like Jesus with the Samaritan woman: «“Go, call your husband, and come back here.” The woman said to him: “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her: “Your are right to say, ‘I have no husband’, for you have had five husbands but the man who is with you now is not your husband; in this you spoke the truth.” The woman said to him: “Lord, I see that you are a prophet”.» (Jn 4.16-19)
The Vatican scribe given the task of fabricating the letter was not a prophet. He had no way of knowing that “Mrs Chamorel” had divorced her second husband some time previously…
THE HONOUR OF THE CHURCH
In 1984 Abbé de Nantes entitled his editorial “JUSTICE WILL BE HEARD”. This was in connection with the dramatic death of John Paul I «who had dared to stand alone against plutocratic and masonic tyranny; and it cost him his life. “Though dead, he still speaks”, as it is written of Abel the Just (Heb 11.4).» (CCR no 172, October 1984)
Admittedly, Mrs Tornay’s lawyers do not refer to Holy Scripture! Nevertheless, «the Parisian duo maintain that they do not want a “scrap with the Vatican”, but simply to ensure that “justice is heard”.» (La Croix, 29 April 2002)
We ourselves have known for a long time now that justice is simply not heard in Rome. «The denial of justice is manifest, affirms the lawyer Vergès: a young man is killed by a firearm and his mother is refused any explanation and any written record. The likes of this have never been seen before!»
Excuse me! It was seen twenty-four years ago when John Paul I was murdered, a murder immediately made to look like cardiac failure. If Vergès believed in the devil, he would not be unduly surprised, for Albino Luciani said that the devil was in the Vatican. But whatever the future result of the requests, counter-investigations and lawyer’s findings may be, we must not let our imaginations run riot, for that is rightly repugnant to our hearts. We should copy the terms employed by the Abbé de Nantes in 1984 with regard to the role played by Cardinal Villot in the assassination of John Paul I. One need only replace the name “Villot” with that of “Wojtyla” in order to apply these considerations to today’s perplexities, and say:
«No, it was not John Paul II who decided on the murder of Alois Estermann, Karol Wojtyla’s double, his private bodyguard since 1981. It was not he who organised it. He simply found himself confronted with a crime perpetrated by those he knew, and in a manner and at a time also known to him. He was not the author of the crime.
«Perhaps we can say that he was an accomplice in the crime? and, after the event, a participant?
«He found himself constrained, clearly reluctantly, to do what his conscience and his high sense of his duty told him to do at an hour when he held supreme authority and all power, namely to disguise the crime now that it had been consummated and was irreparable, in order to save the honour of Holy Church.
«For such was, and still is, the idea of the Church’s honour as understood by the Secretariat of State in all its avenues and curial ramifications, even where the pontifical throne is concerned.» (cf. CCR no 172, p. 9)
Thus, reasons of State cover up lies and crimes in the Vatican just as they do in Washington!... against the ecclesiastical traditions that guarantee to every one of the Catholic faithful, throughout his entire life, the magnificent privilege of appealing to Rome in any kind of difficulty or trial, when every other means of succeeding through other channels has proved impracticable or disappointing.
THE TRIBUNAL OF THE POPE
One of Cedric’s colleagues, Corporal Christian Richard has, in a single phrase, thrown a raw light on this drama: «It is too easy to make Cedric into a scapegoat for this dirty business.» Rather than “scapegoat”, it would be better to say red herring: in order to create a diversion when fox hunting, a rotting herring is brandished before the dog pack, in order to make it loose the scent and so bring the hunt to an end. The red herring thrown to journalists and to the public to devour is Vice-Corporal Cedric Tornay, presented as «an assassin who acted in a fit of madness, assassinating the colonel and his wife, and then taking his own life».
The inquiry was rigged, falsified in a thousand ways, and oriented so as to endorse this «official thesis», and everyone’s attention was focused on Cedric Tornay. Immediately, without the slightest hesitation, as was the case in the assassination of John Paul I twenty years earlier, as was the case in that of Roberto Calvi which closely followed it, a group of people intervened, doctoring the scene of the murder and removing all the evidence. The two «forensic pathologists working for the Holy See», Pietro Fucci and Giovanni Arcudi, if they were not actually waiting on the stairs like John Paul I’s embalmers, carried out the autopsy a few hours after the crime, and in secret. The gathering of evidence and the ballistic analyses were carried out by Raoul Bonarelli, under their sole supervision.
Indeed, the Vatican was careful not to call upon the Italian Police’s criminal records office and its ballistics experts, contrary to an established practice whereby the Italian police are called upon when a crime has been committed within the Vatican precincts. We know something about this, we whose access to the Bronze Door was blocked by the Italian police in 1973, even though we had no intention of killing anyone, but had simply come to ask Pope Paul VI for justice!
On the evening of 4 May 1998, a veritable piece of stagecraft was orchestrated: at midnight, an ambulance from the Vatican’s Health Assistance Fund, a white vehicle registered SCV 424 and bearing the inscription “mobile reanimation unit”, feigned to transport three bodies to the Gemelli Polyclinic Hospital.
In reality, the bodies of the three victims were placed on stretchers which halberdiers transported to the Vatican morgue situated next to Saint Anne’s Church. It was imperative to prevent an autopsy taking place outside the Vatican or on the premises of the Health Assistance Fund. The three corpses were therefore taken away without any of the precautions routinely used in criminal investigations, without gloves or bags, and placed in the corridor of the morgue, then covered with sheets.
The inquiry was entrusted to the only judge in Vatican State, the lawyer Gianluigi Marrone. He decided that the autopsy would be carried out the following day, within Vatican State, by two middle-aged forensic pathologists, Pietro Fucci and Giovanni Arcudi, who could be trusted to do what was necessary.
Muguette Baudat claims that the Vatican is protecting those responsible for the massacre and its agents. She makes this claim in a document confided to KAOS Publications and published under her name, with a provocative title, THE VOICE OF MUGUETTE BAUDAT, at the end of a work entitled BUGIE DI SANGUE IN VATICANO («Blood Lies in the Vatican»), published in November 1999 in Milan. These pages constitute a veritable Liber accusationis.
Doubtless drawn up in collaboration with her lawyers, this indictment is accompanied by a facsimile of the decrees that emanated from the Vatican, informing her of the rejection of her request to defend her son unjustly accused of murder. She lists the anomalies of the preliminary investigation of 1998-1999, and testifies to the pressure brought to bear on her by the emissaries of the Secretariat of State, after she had several times attempted to address the Holy Father directly. Whilst trying to find out just how much she knew, they insisted that she should not importune the Pope – who had nothing to do with this affair – and, above all, that she should keep silent.
As for us, we will be wary of following these anonymous authors in their investigations into facts and events that were carefully dated and clearly observed by habitués of the Vatican, familiar with the premises and the habits of the staff, both religious and lay. They lead to the thesis that two influential groups are confronting each other in the Vatican: «the masonic clan» divided into rival factions, and «Opus Dei». These organised groups operate in the shadows and in secret… We will not attempt to penetrate it.
With our eyes fixed on Our Lady of Fatima, who showed, by unveiling Her own “Secret”, that She did not want to know of crime, not having been given the task of judging such matters, we will simply recall that our complaint concerns another act of infamy, a different form of assassination, to use the term applied by Cardinal Daniélou when speaking of the «assassins of the faith». In a final petition addressed «to the most distinguished members of the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signatura» on 24 May 1998, three weeks after the triple assassination of the Swiss Guards, the Abbé de Nantes denounced a much more serious crime:
«It concerns the immanent and contagious apostasy which continues to grow, everywhere banishing the true faith, in capite et in membris, to the extent that the implacable enemies of our holy religion lord it over the innocent flock in the Church, and the scattered defenders of the faith find themselves reduced to silence, persecuted and ultimately excluded, a mortal sadness to their hearts. CAVEANT CONSULES!
«Owing to the fact that our perfect and irreformable Catholic faith has been altered, travestied and corrupted among vast regions and population ever since the Reform decided upon by Vatican II, the defenders of the only Faith by which men can be saved find themselves discouraged, turned away, nay threatened with the direst ecclesiastical sanctions and most terrible insults from the forces of the media if they persevere in this combat.
«Thus it fares with me, I who have engaged in this struggle ever since the beginning of the Council. I have received an interdict from my Bishop and have had to put up with the gravest threats, and since I was unable to resign myself to this, I was immediately obliged to make my first appeal to Rome. That was at Christmas 1965, and since then I have renewed this appeal on ten occasions without obtaining satisfaction regarding either the truth or the justice of this combat, which I will pursue till my death, unless of course I am convicted of an offence.»
And,one group is of God and the other is of His adversary;or,one is of Christ and the other of the anti-Christ;or,one is of Life and the other of death;or,one is of Truth and the other of lies.
It does not matter what terms one uses,the war goes on under one of those baaners. It is up to Catholics to recognize this and be discerning. I see this current scandal as a means to identify the forces and the followers by smoking them out into the open. I am often struck by how many Catholics kill their own because they use their own personal judgements to obscure the reality,both natural and supenatural.
The Abbe believes Mary pre-existed in Heaven.
He, like so many others, truly thinks his little organisation is the real Church. He needs prayers. He is an old man and doesn't have a lot of time to repent...<>
So what!!
Saint Augustine in his Confessions, volume 2, book 12... commenting on the first verses of Genesis: "In the beginning God created heaven and earth."
He explains what we must understand by heaven and defines it in such a way as to leave no doubt: it is the same word that the Most Holy Virgin used when she said, "I am from Heaven". Now, what exactly is it? It is not our visible heavens; it is the Heaven of heavens, which belongs to the Lord.
The earth, on the other hand, is unformed matter out of which the whole universe will come forth, the visible heavens and the earth we tread; it is this that constitutes the account of creation: "On the first day…" Therefore, before that creation, there was already a creation: heaven and earth.
This "Heaven of heavens" was therefore made before the beginning of days, and Saint Augustine insists: "There was no time that preceded it, since it is written that Wisdom was created before all other creatures. We are not of course referring to that Wisdom of whom You are the Father, who is perfectly equal and co-eternal with You, through whom all things were created, and who is the principle on which You have made heaven and earth, but we refer to that other Wisdom which is a creature and which was created before all the rest. She preceded the creation of time. Nevertheless one must place the eternity of the Creator before Her, since He is the principle of Her existence."
"This Heaven of heavens, which You created from the beginning, is assuredly an intelligent substance. Now, although She is not co-eternal with Your ineffable Trinity, She nevertheless participates in some way in the eternity of Your nature.
"This creature has no other will than Your own and, intoxicated with an eternal desire for Your chaste delights, She endlessly enjoys Your Presence, concentrating all Her love on You alone. She knows everything, not in a successive manner, but in a single moment, not darkly and as if through a mirror, but with clear vision.
"She is the wholly spiritual house of God and She participates in Your eternity, because She remains always without blemish." - Saint Augustine
You have the cite wrong. It is Book 12. AUGUSTINE: CONFESSIONS, Fordham University web site.
I would point particularly to Chapter XV, paragraphs 19 and 20:
19. "What, then, will you say to this, you objectors? Are these things false?" "No," they say. "What then? Is it false that every entity already formed and all matter capable of receiving form is from him alone who is supremely good, because he is supreme?" "We do not deny this, either," they say. "What then? Do you deny this: that there is a certain sublime created order which cleaves with such a chaste love to the true and truly eternal God that, although it is not coeternal with him, yet it does not separate itself from him, and does not flow away into any mutation of change or process but abides in true contemplation of him alone?" If thou, O God, dost show thyself to him who loves thee as thou hast commanded--and art sufficient for him--then, such a one will neither turn himself away from thee nor turn away toward himself. This is "the house of God." It is not an earthly house and it is not made from any celestial matter; but it is a spiritual house, and it partakes in thy eternity because it is without blemish forever. For thou hast made it steadfast forever and ever; thou hast given it a law which will not be removed. Still, it is not coeternal with thee, O God, since it is not without beginning--it was created.
20. For, although we can find no time before it (for wisdom was created before all things),[473] this is certainly not that Wisdom which is absolutely coeternal and equal with thee, our God, its Father, the Wisdom through whom all things were created and in whom, in the beginning, thou didst create the heaven and earth. This is truly the created Wisdom, namely, the intelligible nature which, in its contemplation of light, is light. For this is also called wisdom, even if it is a created wisdom. But the difference between the Light that lightens and that which is enlightened is as great as is the difference between the Wisdom that creates and that which is created. So also is the difference between the Righteousness that justifies and the righteousness that is made by justification. For we also are called thy righteousness, for a certain servant of thine says, "That we might be made the righteousness of God in him."[474] Therefore, there is a certain created wisdom that was created before all things: the rational and intelligible mind of that chaste city of thine. It is our mother which is above and is free[475] and "eternal in the heavens"[476]--but in what heavens except those which praise thee, the "heaven of heavens"? This also is the "heaven of heavens" which is the Lord's--although we find no time before it, since what has been created before all things also precedes the creation of time. Still, the eternity of the Creator himself is before it, from whom it took its beginning as created, though not in time (since time as yet was not), even though time belongs to its created nature.
It is a microcosm of the world. The enemy is in every country,every political party,every religion,where they hide in disguise or keep hidden those that are "good".Do you think I would be so against moving against Iraq,if I for one moment believed we were getting information that was true?
Isn't that the reason we both agree on Iraq?
Another grotesque lie and calumny from Catholicguy
Correspondence and meeting between † Cardinal François Marty Archbishop of Paris and Mgr Etchegaray the Abbé de Nantes…
Cardinal Marty replies to the Abbé de Nantes on 21 May
Monsieur l'Abbé,
"I received your letter of the 8th May last. I read it with care, and I thought I could detect sentiments that fill me with hope
"I was in Rome yesterday for the third centenary of Saint-Louis-des-Français. I arranged for the Holy Father to have a copy of your letter.
I am perfectly ready to receive you. You have also written to Mgr Etchegaray. I would like to take advantage of one of his trips to Paris so that we can receive you together. He should be coming on the 12th and 14th of June for the Permanent Council.
Would you be able to come to Paris on Tuesday 13 June? The meetings of the Permanent Council take place at the Daughters of Mary, 37 rue Notre-Dame des Champs, Paris 6. We will be able to receive you there at 18:15.
Please be assured of my devoted sentiments and my prayers.
† Fr Cardinal Marty
THE MEETING ON 13 JUNE 1978 WITH CARDINAL MARTY AND MGR ETCHEGARAY
The Abbé de Nantes will accept the invitation of the two archbishops. On 13 June at 6.15pm, he can be seen approaching Cardinal Marty and Mgr Etchegaray in the courtyard of the House of the Daughters of the Heart of Mary. He starts up a conversation with the Archbishop of Paris: “I present my respects to you, Eminence.” – “You have not changed”, replies the Cardinal, “you are still as young as ever.” “And you, Eminence, you seem to be brimming with life.”.......
The Abbé de Nantes presents Cardinal Marty and Mgr Etchegaray with the following
“1. – I believe in the Holy Roman Catholic Church and I recognise His Holiness Paul VI as the only true Pope, and the Bishops in communion with him as true and legitimate bishops.
“2. – Starting from 1964 I believed I could discern errors and heresies in the Acts of Pope Paul VI and the Second Vatican Council. I therefore publicly formulated my opposition to these novelties, which in my view undermined the deposit of divine Revelation.....
“10. – From 22 July 1969 onwards, I set myself in public opposition to the schismatic ideas and plans brought to my attention. I disowned and dissociated myself from those who led the faithful along this path of rupture with the Church. I refuted their doctrinal errors, particularly on the validity of the new sacramental rites; I denounced their rejection of the present-day visible Church and their practice of creating separate chapels....
The Abbé de Nantes returned to the tenth paragraph, which refers to his rupture with the schismatic integrists in the years 1969-1970. “At that period, I was accused of weakness and treason by friends who turned away from me.” – “Yes, yes, we know”, said Cardinal Marty. “Naturally, we understand the sincerity of your appeal.” – “I laboured for the unity of the Church at the very moment when you were unworthily persecuting the traditionalists. By maltreating them, you have thrown them into revolt and schism.”
– † Fr Cardinal Marty - “Your views have been very clearly stated. The episcopate is aware of them. You yourself are not in any way outside of the Church.”
– “That is true, Eminence, so much so that in my absence the brothers and sisters attend the parish Mass at Saint-Parres-lès-Vaudes. The parish priest gives them communion.”
† Fr Cardinal Marty – “Yes, of course.”
From the Spiritual Writings of Saint Louise de Marillac
SAINT LOUISE DE MARILLAC'S DREAM
Dream of the eve of 8 December
"On the vigil of the Conception of the Blessed Virgin, after having heard the reading from the epistle for that day, I had a dream in which I saw a great darkness arise in the middle of the day. It started off small at first, but it then turned into a very dark night which astonished and terrified the whole world. My own feelings, however, were simply those of submission to divine Justice. Once the darkness had passed, I saw daylight return, and in a certain place high up in the sky I saw a figure like that represented in the scene of the Transfiguration, but the figure seemed to me to be that of a woman. I was seized with great astonishment and experienced such a sense of gratitude towards God that my body suffered as a result and, after the pain had woken me up, I continued to suffer for some while longer. Unlike the ordinary run of my dreams, that image has always remained in my mind, inspiring me to believe that this initial grace bestowed upon the Virgin marked the commencement of the light that the Son of God was to bestow upon the world.
"In my meditation on the subject of the epistle I noticed how Holy Church suggested that the Blessed Virgin possessed Her being from before the Creation of the world. My mind acquiesced in this idea, and it occurred to me that not only had She been in the mind of God from all eternity through His foreknowledge, but that She had been so to a greater degree than any other creature on account of the dignity which God destined Her for as the Mother of His Son. It [Her being] knew that it was willed before the creation of any earthly thing capable of witnessing to the sin of our fathers. God wished to make a specific act of His will in order to create the soul of the Blessed Virgin, and this may also have been an effective act. I submit such thinking entirely to Holy Church, only making use of it the better to honour the Blessed Virgin and as a means of renewing our Society’s general dependence on Her, being Her most wretched daughters who regard Her nonetheless as our most worthy and unique Mother. May Jesus and Mary be loved. (Écrits spirituels de Louise de Marillac, ed. 1983, p. 730)
From the CRC - Commentary by brother G. de Jésus-Marie
«The epistle for that day» was the personification of Wisdom as found in the Book of Proverbs, chapter 8, as applied to the Virgin Mary by the liturgy for this feast of Her Conception. The saint dreamed about this text, which she had heard during the readings earlier that day before lying down and going to sleep. Her dream unfolds in several stages. First of all she saw an unusual «darkness in the middle of the day», like the beginning of an eclipse, which gradually grew into «a very dark night», like a total eclipse. There was astonishment throughout «the whole world» : people had never seen such a blackness in the middle of the day! There was general terror, as always happens with animals during an eclipse. But in this case the darkness is a spiritual one.
The saint, for her part, experienced only feelings of personal submission «to divine Justice». This dream comes from God, like a vision in the Apocalypse, a warning of a well-deserved chastisement. Submission : may His will be done!
Another tableau succeeds the first, with a coherence that clearly shows the supernatural origin of this dream. As with the end of an eclipse, the brightness of the day returned, and there appeared «high up in the sky», which is the dwelling place of God (2 Co 12.2; Ep 4.10), «a figure like that represented in the scene of the Transfiguration». There is no terror this time, simply «great astonishment» and thanksgiving, accompanied by physical suffering which made her wake up. So it was with the disciples who witnessed the Transfiguration of the Lord on Mount Thabor, a sign which heralded His coming glorification, but only at the price of suffering (Mt 17.12).
«Unlike the ordinary run» of dreams which disperse on contact with reality, this one stamped on her mind the identity of the «figure of a woman» seen in the dream and made her interpret Her Transfiguration as «the commencement of the light that the Son of God was to bestow upon the world».
THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN
The Transfiguration of the Mother heralds that of the Son with an anteriority which brings the saint’s meditation back to the «epistle» of the day, the personification of Wisdom, where this anteriority is characterised by its relation to the whole of creation. The application which the Church makes of this to the Blessed Virgin and the vision of the dream itself combine to impose the idea of the pre-existence of the Blessed Virgin, an idea formulated by the holy sister with an admirable precision. She proceeds at a good pace along this path, so narrow, so elevated… why not follow her as she pushes back the barriers of abstract scholastic theories?
There is nothing to distinguish the Virgin from other creatures in the mind of God if She is only there through the «foreknowledge» by which God, in His eternal present, knows everything on earth, in heaven and in hell. But Holy Church goes further : she considers that the Blessed Virgin possessed «Her being from before the Creation of the world». What does that mean? To understand it, one need only follow the liturgy for the feasts of the Blessed Virgin and repeat the inspired texts: «The Lord created me when His purpose first unfolded, before the oldest of His works.» (Pr 8.22) The Latin says possedit me, «possessed me», but the Hebrew verb qanani is translated by the Greek as «created me». Furthermore, the Book of Ecclesiasticus clearly states that «before all other things Wisdom was created» (Si 1.4). It is this personified Wisdom which the liturgy so often identifies with the Blessed Virgin, proclaiming: «He who created me fixed a place for my tent. He said, "Make your dwelling in Jacob, and receive Israel as your inheritance." From eternity, in the beginning, He created me, and for eternity I shall remain.» (Si 24.8-9) and receive Israel as your inheritance." From eternity, in the beginning, He created me, and for eternity I shall remain.» (Si 24.8-9)
In the Proper of the Mass for 8 December, the reading, taken from the Book of Proverbs, continues : «From everlasting I was installed, from the beginning, before the earth came into being.» (Pr 8.23) The Hebrew verb nâsak is the same as that found in Psalm 2, referring to the Messiah : «It is I who have installed my king on Zion, my holy mountain». (Ps 2.6)
«The deep was not when I was brought to birth (et ego iam concepta eram).» (Pr 8.24) The same Hebrew word hûl reappears in the following verse: «When there were no springs gushing with water, before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I was brought to birth (ego parturiebar).» (Pr 8.25)
Applied to the «being» of the Blessed Virgin, this text read in Latin by Saint Louise expresses first Her «conception» (et ego iam concepta eram) and then Her birth (ego parturiebar). It was Saint Jerome who introduced this nuance, involving two different uses of the same Hebrew verb.
It was to all of this that the mind of the holy sister «acquiesced» with an extraordinary vigour: «it occurred to me that not only had She been in the mind of God from all eternity through His foreknowledge, but that She had been so to a greater degree than any other creature on account of the dignity which God destined Her for as the Mother of His Son». Therefore, it is not so much by a temporal anteriority that She takes precedence over all other creatures, but by the place She holds in the mind of God. All the rest of creation taken together is as nothing when compared with the Virgin Mary chosen by God to be the Mother of His Son. Her dignity is the expression of this vocation, of this role She is going to play, as known by God. And known by Her also.
«It knew…» What is "it"? Her «being»: a word chosen from amongst a thousand with a wonderful metaphysical aptness to designate her «being» in its concrete existence, so perfect that it was already existent and substantial. She knew that She was willed «before the creation of any earthly thing capable of witnessing to the sin of our fathers». The Virgin Mary is the Immaculate Conception because She came forth before creation, before the appearance of Original Sin, and indeed before the appearance of any creature able one day to witness it. She issued from God quite separately from – and consequently before – all that was going to be damaged and soiled by sin.
em>«God wished to make a specific act of His will in order to create the soul of the Blessed Virgin»: From the moment that God decided to bring Her into existence, He saw Her, He "conceived" Her, and He gave Her a being worthy of One who was to be the Mother of God. She came into being in a wholly unique way, Her soul being created even before there was question of Her body.
«And this may also have been an effective act.» It was truly a special divine act which brought the soul of the Virgin Mary into existence before anything should appear, be it angel or man, heaven or earth. And it was all due to Her dignity, which sets Her above all and everything. Thus, the Virgin Mary is with God, existentially, well before Original Sin. Before the world began, She is co-eternal with God. Saint Thomas himself could not deny this, since, basing himself on Aristotle, he accepted the metaphysical plausibility of the eternity of matter!
«I submit such thoughts entirely to Holy Church»: admirable reserve! to crown an extraordinary boldness! She displays not the least indiscreet curiosity or vanity… only the desire to «better honour the Blessed Virgin», with a sublime tenderness and devotion towards our Mother who is more divine than human, almost infinite through Her participation in the divinity. She exists in infinite love, She is the freedom of infinite love from all eternity, because She has always existed and always will exist. Perhaps some day people will follow Saint Louise de Marillac and be bold enough to say such things.
<>Well, that settles it. I hadn't heard this latest news:)<>
Please cite for me Christian Doctrine, not speculation, visions, private allocutions etc, that says Mary pre-existed in Heaven and "always existed and always will exist. "
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