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To: Catholicguy
Reread the excerpt. No one denies change is possible. But it is gradual, incremental, organic. The liturgy grows and changes like a living organism. This is Ratzinger's point-- and Jungmann's and Gamber's. What is NOT permissible is revolutionary change, radical change. This is what Ratzinger stated in his preface to Gamber's classic text: "In the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the living, organic process of growth and development over the centuries, and replaced it--as with a manufacturing process--with a fabrication, an on-the-spot product."
17 posted on 11/25/2002 7:24:24 AM PST by ultima ratio
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To: ultima ratio; Catholicguy
But it is gradual, incremental, organic.

What does organic mean in the context of the Liturgy? Ratzinger's position is not different the current or previous Pope's. Organic means dialectic. One cannot have a dialectic with oneself. The dialectic has to be in the context of ecumenism. Ratzinger is merely holding up one end of the spectrum, the East, and saying, "It is now time to reaccount for the East." Do you reject dialectic in Liturgical reform? If you don't, then you have to answer with what points the dialectic should be involved. If you do, then you have to explain what change means in Liturgy. The Popes have shown the way on this. The dialectic is with the separated brethren, East and West.

18 posted on 11/25/2002 8:06:53 AM PST by WriteOn
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To: ultima ratio
Reading the following Ratzinger statements together presents an interesting problem:

"After the Second Vatican Council, the impression arose that the pope really could do anything in liturgical matters, especially if he were acting on the mandate of an ecumenical council. ... In fact, the First Vatican Council had in no way defined the pope as an absolute monarch. On the contrary, it presented him as the guarantor of obedience to the revealed Word. The pope's authority is bound to the Tradition of faith, and that also applies to the liturgy. It is not 'manufactured' by the authorities. Even the pope can only be a humble servant of its lawful development and abiding integrity and identity."

"In the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the living, organic process of growth and development over the centuries, and replaced it--as with a manufacturing process--with a fabrication, an on-the-spot product." ...

The obvious question that follows would be, upon what authority then can the "fabricated liturgy" (Ratzinger's term) be accepted? It would seem Cardinal Ratzinger provides convincing testimony against papal authority being sufficient - even when backed by an ecumenical council.

I would truly like someone to try to bridge this problem without resorting to the usual antagonistic diatribes. I seriously doubt it is the first time this question has been posed, so someone out there might be aware of some more substantive responses.

20 posted on 11/25/2002 8:29:18 AM PST by Snuffington
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