Posted on 11/19/2002 10:49:27 AM PST by TBP
Whenever we get theological threads, everyone makes the same arguments. I thought I'd come at these issues from another angle.
I'd like to see your comments on the following quotes:
"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for behold, the kingdom of God is wihtin you." -- Luke 17:21
"Heaven and Hell are states of consciousness." -- Dr.Ernest Holmes, The Science of Mind, page 337.
"Heaven is not a place or a time. Heaven is being perfect." -- Richard Bach, Jonathan Livingston Seagull
And from Jesus himself, though I don't have specific chapter and verse handy: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect."
What is consciousness?
"God said, 'Let us make Man in our image,'" sometimes strikes me as Man having been contributive of the act through his ability to derive meaning from information abstracted from his environment. Free will, making him God-like, after a fashion unrealized - or, at least incommunicable - in any other bioligical system we know.
Interesting, I think.
The Kingdom of God has different meanings throughout Scripture. This phrase does not necessarily refer to heaven.
"Heaven and Hell are states of consciousness." -- Dr.Ernest Holmes, The Science of Mind, page 337.
Typical secular humanist means of explaining away the things of God.
"Heaven is not a place or a time. Heaven is being perfect." -- Richard Bach, Jonathan Livingston Seagull
He's 1/3 correct. Heaven is not a time. It does not exist within the Universe. The other two assertions are false.
And from Jesus himself, though I don't have specific chapter and verse handy: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect."
Matthew 5:48. There is only one means by which any of us could ever attain the perfection required by the Father, and that is to put on the righteousness of Christ. I don't see how this verse comments on the nature of Heaven in any case.
Those are my thoughts.
Rather like 'intelligent design' HUH?
Luk 24:11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not. ...typical of man
Well, not exactly. The above is saying heaven and hell are figments of our imagination...that they do not exist except in our mind. Essentially, they remove God from the equation all together. Intelligent Design merely seeks to reconcile the fact of the Creator with the observed detail of the creation. I'm not about to get into a debate over creation. I am sufficiently satisfied with knowing that everything around me was created by God.
Whether He did it in seven days or billions of years does not matter to me nearly as much as it matters to some others:)
Condemnation by very faint praise!
Why are we not surprised?
Typical secular humanist means of explaining away the things of God.
Really? I wonder why christian mystics like Meister Eckhardt, Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross and Jacob Boehme, among others, all espoused substantially similar viewpoints on the matter of heaven and hell being states of mind?
Perhaps you might take a moment sometime to peruse their writings. They have a lot to do with dispensing with the denotation of literal text and investigating the conotations.
I find them quite accurate and not at all mistaken, myself.
I don't think the totality of their collective veiwpoint(s) of what happens can easily be portrayed without going into great length here, so I won't speak for them. Again, I suggest you read them and determine this for yourself.
As to my view, I don't know.
That's right. Thank you.
No, but it clearly identifies God as being within each of us. "There is no spot where God is not." The Mind, Power, and Presence of God are in us, according to this Biblical verse. As Genesis tells us, "In the beginning, there was God." Not God and, just God.
God expresses in, through, and as each of us. As Dr. Holmes puts it, "God in me, as me, is me."
"Heaven and Hell are states of consciousness." -- Dr.Ernest Holmes, The Science of Mind, page 337. Typical secular humanist means of explaining away the things of God.
How do you get "secular humanism" out of this? It is simply a consequence of Dr. Holmes's principle that God is the only thing in the Universe, operating as every one of us, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent.
And what is "secular humanism" anyway? If you listen to the conservative intellectual Irving Babbitt (one of Russell Kirk's mentors), real humanism "reminds man of his divine reality." It exalts mankind as God's finest and highest expression, at least in this world. That is anything but secular. I think secularism and true humanism are incompatible.
"Heaven is not a place or a time. Heaven is being perfect." -- Richard Bach, Jonathan Livingston Seagull He's 1/3 correct. Heaven is not a time. It does not exist within the Universe. The other two assertions are false.
Please explain this. If and when we reach perfection, is that not Heaven? Do you think it is possible to live in such a way that you are living a Heavenly life in this world?
And from Jesus himself, though I don't have specific chapter and verse handy: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48. There is only one means by which any of us could ever attain the perfection required by the Father, and that is to put on the righteousness of Christ. I don't see how this verse comments on the nature of Heaven in any case.
In the context of the last statements, it clarly would.
However, in any event, Jesus here tells us to "be perfect" as God is. Clearly, he thinks that this is possible (indeed, perhaps our true nature) yet his followers say otherwise. And wouldn't that achieve Heaven?
I am not God. Neither are you. There is absolute distinction between the Creator and the creation. I use a knife to cut an apple. That doesn't mean I am a knife or the knife is me. The knife is an instrument, it is a creation of my hands (in the sense that men fashioned it), and through it I might demonstrate aspects of my nature (rage, malice, hunger, etc). At no point do the knife or myself lose their distinctiveness.
How do you get "secular humanism" out of this? It is simply a consequence of Dr. Holmes's principle that God is the only thing in the Universe, operating as every one of us, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent. And what is "secular humanism" anyway? If you listen to the conservative intellectual Irving Babbitt (one of Russell Kirk's mentors), real humanism "reminds man of his divine reality." It exalts mankind as God's finest and highest expression, at least in this world. That is anything but secular. I think secularism and true humanism are incompatible.
Let me be more clear then without using such terms. If God is the only thing operating in the Universe, then He is directly responsible for our sin. This violates the law of non-contradiction because God by definition and nature cannot sin. And if man is God's highest expression, the depravity inherent in unregenerate man points to God as a failure.
Please explain this. If and when we reach perfection, is that not Heaven? Not if or when, but where. We will never reach perfection in this world.
Do you think it is possible to live in such a way that you are living a Heavenly life in this world? Name me one person who conquered all sin in their life. One person in history who did not have fault. One person who was not a sinner. If you answer anything but Jesus Christ, you are ignorant of scripture and the fallen nature of humanity. When we reach Heaven, we will receive glorified bodies, pure and free from sin. Until then we can only aspire to perfection, never achieve it.
However, in any event, Jesus here tells us to "be perfect" as God is. Clearly, he thinks that this is possible (indeed, perhaps our true nature) yet his followers say otherwise. And wouldn't that achieve Heaven?
Our true nature? The headlines in today's paper indicate otherwise. This New Age humanism is a false gospel.
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