How many times do you suppose the Shofar will be blown before it is the last time for real?
Posted on 11/18/2002 3:55:44 PM PST by xzins
Biblical Evidences for a Pretribulational Rapture
by
Mike Vlach, Assistant Pastor
INDIAN HILLS COMMUNITY CHURCH
1000 South 84th St., Lincoln, NE 68510-4499
Phone: 402-483-4541 Web site: http://www.ihcc.org
Introductory matters concerning the Rapture
Interest in the Rapture A 1994 survey by U.S. News and World Report found that 61 percent of Americans believe that Jesus Christ will return to earth, and 44 percent believe in the rapture of the church. (Jeffery L. Sheler, "The Christmas Covenant," U.S. News and World Report, December 19, 1994, pp. 62, 64)
Where do we get the term "Rapture"? The term "rapture" is not found in the Bible, so where does the word come from? The term "rapture" comes from the Latin translation of the Greek word translated "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Charles Ryrie explains, "The Greek word from which we take the term 'rapture' appears in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, translated 'caught up.' The Latin translation of this verse used the word rapturo. The Greek word it translates is harpazo, which means to snatch or take away. Elsewhere it is used to describe how the Spirit caught up Philip near Gaza and brought him to Caesarea (Acts 8:39) and to describe Paul's experience of being caught up into the third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2-4). Thus there can be no doubt that the word is used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 to indicate the actual removal of people from earth to heaven." (Charles Ryrie, Basic Theology, p. 462)
Passages referring to the Rapture There are three primary texts which refer to the Rapture: 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 and John 14:1-3.
Components of the Rapture
The return of Christ "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout. . ." (1 Thess. 4:16). "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to myself" (John 14:3)
A resurrection of dead church saints "The dead in Christ shall rise first" (1 Thess. 4:16). "The dead will be raised imperishable" (1 Cor. 15:52).
A translation of living believers "Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up" (1 Thess. 4:17).
A glorious reunion "We. . . shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thess. 4:17). "I will come. . . that where I am, there you may be also" (John 14:3).
A giving of glorified bodies "We shall be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Cor. 15:52-53). "We eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory" (Philippians 3:20-21).
Speed of Rapture "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" (1 Cor. 15:52).
The timing of the Rapture in relation to the Tribulation period
The debate "In the nineteenth century, teaching concerning the Rapture of the church began to be widely disseminated. This raised such questions as whether the second coming of Christ involves several stages, the relation of those stages to the Tribulation period, and the distinctiveness of the church from Israel in God's program. In the twentieth century one of the most debated questions in eschatology concerns the time of the Rapture." (Ryrie, p. 478)
The various views Amillennialists and Postmillennialists regard the coming of Christ as a single event to be followed by a general resurrection and judgment. Within Premillennialism, though, five main views have been promoted concerning the timing of the Rapture:
Pretribulationism Pretribulationsim teaches that the Rapture of the church will occur before the seven-year Tribulation period begins. Supporters of this view include John Walvoord, Charles Ryrie, Dwight Pentecost, Alva J. McClain, John Feinberg, and Paul Feinberg.
Midtribulationism Midtribulationsim teaches that the Rapture of the church will occur at the midpoint of the seven years of Tribulation; that is, after three and one half years have elapsed. Supporters of this view include Oliver Buswell and Gleason Archer.
Pre-wrath Rapture The Pre-wrath rapture view teaches that all Christians will be taken in the Rapture approximately three-fourths of the way through the Tribulation period. Supporters of this view include Marvin Rosenthal and Robert Van Kampen.
Posttribulationism Posttribulationism teaches that the Rapture and Second Coming are facets of a single event which will occur at the end of the Tribulation period. Thus, the church will be on earth during the seven years Tribulation period. Supporters of this view include George Ladd, Robert Gundry and Douglas Moo.
Partial Rapture The Partial rapture view teaches that only the "spiritual" Christians who are watching and waiting for the Lord's return will be taken in the Rapture. Then during the seven years of Tribulation other Church Age saints who were not prepared for the initial Rapture will be raptured at various intervals. This view originated with Robert Govett in 1835 and was also taught by J. A. Seiss and G.H. Lang.
Why is this issue of the timing of the Rapture important?
Whole counsel of God The study of the Rapture is important because we want to know the whole counsel of God.
The Christian's expectation The Rapture issue is important because it deals with the nature of the Christian's hope and expectation. Are Christians to expect Christ's return at any moment? Or, are we expecting to go through a time of worldwide tribulation?
A Biblical defense of Pretribulationism Of these five views why is Pretribulationism to be preferred? The following are biblical evidences for a Pretribulational Rapture:
The pillars of Pretribulationism The foundation of Pretribulationism has four elements:
Consistent literal interpretation The literal method of interpretation attempts to explain the original sense of the writer according to the normal usages of words and language. The literal method interprets all of the Bible in a normal and plain way, all the time understanding that the Bible, at times, uses symbols, figures of speech and types.
Distinction between Israel and the Church The more one recognizes the biblical distinction between Israel and the church, the clearer one will be able to see God's distinct plan for each group. According to Thomas Ice, "If Israel and the church are not distinguished, then there is no basis for seeing a future for Israel or for the church as a new and unique people of God. If Israel and the church are merged into a single program, then the Old Testament promises for Israel will never be fulfilled and are usually seen by replacement theologians as spiritually fulfilled by the church. The merging of Israel's destiny into the church not only makes into one what the Scriptures understand as two, but it also removes a need for future restoration of God's original elect people in order to fulfill literally His promise that they will one day be the head and not the tail (Deuteronomy 28:13).
The more that believers see a distinct plan for Israel and a distinct plan for the church, the more they realize that when the New Testament speaks to the church it is describing a separate destiny and hope for her. The church becomes more distinct in the plan of God. Israel's future includes the seven-year tribulation, and then shortly before Christ's return to Jerusalem she will be converted to Jesus as her Messiah. . . . On the other hand, the distinct hope for the church is Christ's any-moment return.
Thus, a distinction between Israel and the church, as taught in the Bible, provides a basis of support for the pretribulational rapture. Those who merge the two programs cannot logically support the biblical arguments for pretribulationism." (Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy, The Truth About The Rapture, pp. 25-26)
Futurism Pretribulationism takes a futuristic interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27 and the book of Revelation. Daniel 9:24-27 gives the seven-year chronological framework of the Tribulation while Revelation 6-18 details the judgments that make up this period. Futurism sees prophecy as being fulfilled in the future, namely with the Tribulation period, the Second Coming of Christ to earth, and the Millennial Kingdom. Futurism is opposed to preterism, which sees prophecy as already being fulfilled in the past, predominately in A.D. 70. Futurism is also opposed to historicism which sees prophecy being fulfilled in the current Church Age.
Premillennialism At the end of the seven year Tribulation period, Jesus Christ will return to earth in power and glory to set up an earthly Kingdom from Jerusalem that will last for a literal one thousand years (see Rev. 20:1-6).
Proper methodology for addressing the rapture issue What is the proper method for addressing this issue of the timing of the Rapture?
Examine the Rapture and Second Coming passages Go first to the portions of Scripture that speak directly about the Rapture and the return of the Lord to earth. Study John 14:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 for the Rapture. Examine Zechariah 14:1-21; Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; Luke 21:25-27; and Revelation 19 for the Second Coming to earth.
Examine implications of conclusions Proper methodology does not stop with an examination of the primary texts addressing an issue. As John Feinberg says, "While one should begin with passages that speak directly about the doctrine under consideration, one must also pay attention to the implications of the doctrine. This is especially important if, as in the case of the rapture, the passages about the rapture and return of the Lord do not determine the question of the rapture's timing in relation to the time of the Tribulation. . . . Implications and relations of doctrines to one another are crucial. If one's position on a given theological issue is correct, it will fit with other known theological and biblical truths rather than contradict them. (John S. Feinberg, "Arguing for the Rapture: Who Must Prove What and How" in, When the Trumpet Sounds, Thomas Ice and Timothy eds. p. 191)
Putting it all together "The key point to remember is that proper theological methodology dare not allow us to ignore either the rapture and parousia passages or the doctrines that have implications for one's views on the rapture and second advent. Although study should begin with passages that speak directly to the topic at hand, both are equally important. It is surely no victory to uphold one's views on the timing of the rapture at the expense of denying what God's Word says, for example, about the relation of the church to God's judgmental wrath." (John Feinberg, p. 192)
Biblical evidence for Pretribulationism The Bible does not explicitly tells us the timing of the Rapture. Thus, no one verse tells us that the Rapture will be pretribulational (or midtribulational or posttribulational for that matter). Does this mean that the doctrine of pretribulationism is unbiblical? Not necessarily. Many important biblical doctrines are not given to us directly in one verse. Some doctrines are based on a harmonization of multiple passages. For example, no one verse explains the doctrine of the Trinity or that Jesus Christ is the God-man. Yet a harmonization of passages shows these doctrines to be biblical. Likewise a harmonization of biblical texts shows the pretribulational rapture view to be biblical. The following are the biblical evidences:
God has promised the Church deliverance from divine wrath (1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10) God made a special promise to the church that it will be delivered from the future, tribulational wrath of God. It is best to take this deliverance as a physical removal (Rapture)from this time of divine wrath.
1 Thess. 1:9-10 The Thessalonians were wait[ing] for His Son from heaven. . . that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come. Why does this wrath refer to the Tribulation? First, the context of 1 and 2 Thessalonians deals with the Day of the Lord and the judgment of God that precedes the coming of Christ. Second, the text states that it is a future wrath ("wrath to come"). Third, it is a wrath one can be rescued from by the return of Christ. Thus, The wrath referred to then is the wrath of the Tribulation period and not God's eternal wrath in general.
1 Thess. 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. Why does this wrath refer to the Tribulation? The immediate context is the wrath of the Day of the Lord (5:1-8). Plus, this must be the same wrath as 1 Thess. 1:10.
The whole seven year Tribulation period is a time of God's divine wrath so the protection promised must be for the whole seven years. Some have tried to say that divine wrath does not characterize the whole seven year Tribulation period. They say that the early judgments (the seals) of the tribulation are the wrath of man and Satan. The following points, however, show that the whole Tribulation period is a time of divine wrath.
Jesus is the One who directly opens all the Tribulation judgments including the seal judgments which begin the Tribulation period. In Revelation 4 and 5 Jesus is the One found worthy to open the seals which He begins to open in 6:1. The opening of the seals by Christ indicates that the seal judgments are divine wrath.
The seal judgments which open the Tribulation are consistent with divine wrath "The judgments of these four seals include the sword, famine, pestilence, and wild beasts, frequently used in Scripture as the expressions of divine wrath. Indeed, they are all included and named when God calls His 'four severe judgments upon Jerusalem: sword, famine, wild beasts and plague' (Ezek. 14:21)." (Gerald B. Stanton, "A Review of the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church, Bibliotecha Sacra, vol. 148 #589, January 1991) Plus, plagues such as pestilence and wild beasts can hardly be caused by man.
As early as the sixth seal, unbelievers declare that God's wrath "has come" (Rev. 6:16-17). Unbelievers recognize that all six seals that have happened so far are the direct wrath of God. Robert L. Thomas says "The verb elthen ('has come') is aorist indicative, referring to a previous arrival of the wrath, not something that is about to take place. Men see the arrival of this day at least as early as the cosmic upheavals that characterize the sixth seal (6:12-14), but upon reflection they probably recognize it was already in effect with the death of one-fourth of the population (6:7-8), the worldwide famine (6:5-6), and the global warfare (6:3-4). The rapid sequence of all these events could not escape public notice, but the light of their true explanation does not dawn upon human consciousness until the severe phenomena of the sixth seal arrive." (Robert L. Thomas, Revelation 1-7, pp. 457-58)
Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth. Here is a promise to the Church of preservation outside of the time of Tribulation. Thus, believers are not only promised deliverance from divine wrath but from the time period ("hour") of divine wrath. This rules out the possibility of the Church being on earth during the Tribulation. As Ryrie says, "It is impossible to conceive of being in the location where something is happening and being exempt from the time of the happening."
Differences between Rapture passages and Second Coming passages indicate that the two are different events happening at different times. The central passages dealing with the Rapture are John 14:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. The central passages dealing with the Second Coming to earth are Zechariah 14:1- 21; Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; Luke 21:25-27 and Revelation 19. A careful examination of these texts will show that there is enough reason to conclude that the Rapture and the Second Coming to earth are not the same event:
The Second Coming is preceded by signs but the Rapture is presented as imminent with no signs preceding it. "In passages that deal with the Second Advent there are signs or events that lead up to and signal the return of Jesus Christ (e.g., Matt. 24:4-28; Rev. 19:11-21). In each of these passages of Scripture there is the careful and extensive itemizing of details that should alert believers in that day that the Second Advent is about to occur. . . . On the other hand, there is no mention of any signs or events that precede the Rapture of the church in any of the Rapture passages. The point seems to be that the believer prior to this event is to look, not for some sign, but the Lord from heaven. If the Rapture was a part of the complex of events that make up the Second Advent, and not distinct from it, then we would expect that there would be a mention of signs or events in at least one passage." (See Paul D. Feinberg, "The Case For The Pretribulation Rapture Position," in Gleason Archer, Paul Feinberg, Douglas Moo, The Rapture: Pre-, Mid-, or Post Tribulational? p. 80)
The Rapture is presented as a coming in blessing while the Second Coming is a coming for judgment. "In the clear Rapture passages, the Lord's coming is presented as a coming in blessing for the saints. Nothing is said about His coming for judgment. On the other hand, passages about the second advent speak of the Lord's coming in judgment upon His enemies (Rev. 19:11ff; Joel 3:12-16; Zech. 14:3-5)." (John Feinberg, p. 198). "In each of the Rapture passages there is no mention of trial before the event. Rather, there is the bare promise of Christ's return for His own." (Paul Feinberg, p. 81)
Second Coming passages are in the context of the setting up of the Kingdom while the Rapture passages make no mention of the Kingdom. "Second advent passages are invariably followed by talk of setting up the kingdom after the Lord's return (e.g., Matt. 24:31; 25:31ff; Zech. 14; Joel 3; Rev. 19-20). So, the second advent is preparatory to the establishment of the millennial kingdom. On the other hand, clear rapture passages give no hint that after the rapture the Lord establishes the kingdom." (John Feinberg, p. 198)
Glorified bodies at the Rapture "It is very clear from 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51ff that at the rapture those gathered to the Lord will be glorified. On the other hand, second advent passages say nothing about anyone (living or dead) receiving a glorified body." (John Feinberg, p. 198) "Nowhere in the texts that deal with the Second Advent is there the teaching about the translation of living saints." (Paul Feinberg, p. 82)
No mention of meeting in the air in Second Coming passages Nowhere in the Second Coming passages is a meeting in the air mentioned.
Differences in timing of resurrections "There seems to be an inconsistency between the time of the resurrection at the Rapture and at the Second Coming. In the central Rapture passage dealing with this issue, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, the time of the resurrection of dead saints in clearly stated to be during the descent of Christ of to the earth. Those raptured, living and dead saints, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Contrast that information with what is found in Revelation 19-20. There, the order seems to be: the descent of Christ, the slaying of His enemies, the casting of the Beast and the False Prophet into the lake of fire, the binding of Satan, and then the resurrection of the saints. It seems as though the resurrection of the dead will be during the descent at the Rapture, but after the descent at the Second Coming." (Paul Feinberg, p. 84)
Differences in destiny at time of comings "There seems to be an inconsistency between the destination of those who are raptured in the Rapture and the destination of those who participate in the Second Coming. In the posttribulation understanding of the events that surround the Second Coming, the church will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and will immediately accompany Him on His continued descent to the earth. Compare that with John 14:3. In the Rapture the Lord is going to come and take those raptured to be with Him. The clear implication is that the raptured saints will be taken to heaven, not earth. If this is so, then the destination of those caught up in the Rapture will be heaven. According to the Second Coming passages, however, the saints involved are headed for the earth." (Paul Feinberg, p. 84)
The role of the angels in the comings At the Second Coming, the angels are the ones who will gather the elect (Matt. 24:31). At the Rapture Jesus is the direct agent of the gathering (1 Thess. 4:16).
The "mystery" nature of the Rapture "Paul speaks of the Rapture as a 'mystery' (1 Cor. 15:51-54), that is, a truth not revealed until it was disclosed by the apostles (Col. 1:26). Thus the Rapture is said to be a newly revealed mystery, making it a separate event. The Second Coming on the other hand, was predicted in the Old Testament (Dan. 12:1-3; Zech. 12:10; 14:4). (Thomas Ice in "The Biblical Basis for the Pretribulational Rapture," in Basic Theology Applied, p. 269)
No mention of the Church in Revelation 4-18 Revelation 4-18 gives the most detailed account of the seven year Tribulation period. If the Church were to be in the Tribulation period, surely one would expect at least one reference to the Church in this time period. The Church, however, which is referred to nineteen times in the first three chapters of Revelation, is suddenly silent and never referred to in chapters 4-18. "It is remarkable and totally unexpected that John would shift from detailed instructions for the Church to absolute silence about the Church for the subsequent 15 chapters if, in fact, the Church continued into the tribulation." (Richard L. Mayhue, Snatched Before the Storm, p. 8)
Pretribulationism best explains the presence of nonglorified saints who will enter the Millennial Kingdom. The Bible indicates that living unbelievers will be removed from the earth and judged at the end of the Tribulation. Yet the Bible also teaches that children will be born during the Millennium and that people will be capable of sin (Isa. 65:20 and Rev. 20:7-10). How can this be? The pretribulational view allows for people to be saved after the Rapture and during the Tribulation who will then enter the Millennial Kingdom in nonglorified bodies. As John Feinberg says, "According to pretribulationism, after the rapture the Tribulation begins. The gospel is preached throughout the Tribulation and there are some who believe. Though many who believe are killed (e.g., Revelation 13:7, 15), not all believers are killed during the Tribulation. Those who live through the Tribulation go into the kingdom in natural bodies. In addition, some people accept the Lord when he returns at the end of the Tribulation (e.g., Zech. 12:10). Many of these people do not die at that point, and there is no evidence that they are given a glorified body when they receive Christ. These people are also available to go into the kingdom in natural bodies. For a pretrib position, there are seven years to get people saved prior to the kingdom, and some of those can go into the kingdom in natural bodies. . . . The position that is really in trouble with respect to this issue is the posttribulation rapture view. If everyone who goes at the rapture is glorified, and if the rapture occurs at the end of the Tribulation, who is left to enter the kingdom in natural bodies? All believers will have been raptured and glorified by that time." (Italics mine) (John Feinberg, p. 201)
The nature and purpose of the Tribulation excludes the Church from being part of it.
Nature of Tribulation centers on Israel According to Daniel 9:24-27, the "seventy weeks" prophecy including the final "one week" (seven years) is for Israel ("your people"). Jeremiah 30:7 refers to the Tribulation period as a time of "Jacob's distress." "While the church will experience tribulation in general during the present age (John 16:33), she is never mentioned as participating in Israel's time of trouble, which includes the great tribulation, the day of the Lord, and the wrath of God." (Ice and Demy, The Truth About The Rapture, p. 36)
Purpose #1: Preparation of Israel "The Bible teaches that the Tribulation is a time of preparation for Israel's restoration and conversion (Deuteronomy 4:29, 30; Jeremiah 30:3-11; Zechariah 12:10)." (Ice and Demy, p. 36)
Purpose #2: Judgment for an unbelieving world Revelation 3:10 refers to the Tribulation period as "the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth." The second major purpose of the Tribulation, then, is to test the unbelieving world. "Those who dwell upon the earth" refers to those who are unbelievers on earth during the period described in Revelation 4-19. (Thomas Edgar, "An Exegesis of Rapture Passages," in Issues in Dispensationalism, p. 216)
The nature of the Church If the nature of the Tribulation is Jewish and the purpose of the Tribulation is to bring Israel to belief and to judge the unbelieving world, what purpose does the church have in relation to this period? As shown already, the church is promised deliverance from this time of wrath (1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10).
The expectation of the Church is the imminent coming of Christ not the Tribulation period. "Passages such as 1 Corinthians 1:7; Titus 2:13 and Philippians 3:20 are applicable at this point. The believer is pictured as eagerly waiting and earnestly expecting the Savior. Watching for signs is entirely foreign to these passages. It never occurs. Not even once. Furthermore, not only is the believer to look for the any-moment return of the Lord, but he is to direct his life in the light of it (cf. Rom. 13:11-14; James 5:7-8; 1 John 3:1-3). If, on the other hand, there are specific prophesied signs, in reality we would not be looking for the Savior at any moment but instead should be watching for the revelation of the man of sin, the Great Tribulation, etc. There would be at least a seven-year preparation period." (Earl D. Radmacher, "The Imminent Return of the Lord," in Issues in Dispensationalism, pp. 264-65). "It is incongruous then that the Scriptures would be silent on such a traumatic change for the Church. If posttribulationism were true, one would expect the epistles to teach the fact of the Church in the tribulation, the purpose of the Church in the tribulation, and the conduct of the Church in the tribulation." (Mayhue, p. 9)
The Thessalonian's expectation That Paul had taught a Pretribulational Rapture can be inferred from 2 Thessalonians 2:2-3. In this passage, Paul notes that the Thessalonians had been "shaken" and "disturbed" because they had been led to think that they were presently in the Day of the Lord (i.e. the Tribulation period). The fact that they were disturbed is significant. If Paul had taught a posttribulational rapture, the Thessalonians would have had no reason to be disturbed since they would be expecting signs and persecution before the coming of the Lord. Thus, they could joyously look to the soon coming of the Lord after the Tribulation. However, the fact that the Thessalonians were shook up indicates that they did not expect to be in the Day of the Lord. A fair inference is that, in line with Paul's previous teaching, the Thessalonians expected to be raptured prior to the Day of the Lord.
Concluding thoughts The purpose of this work has been to present a positive, biblical case for the pretribulational rapture position. The judgmental and Jewish nature of the Tribulation seems to exclude the Church who is promised deliverance from this time of wrath. The differences between Rapture and Second Coming passages, though not convincing to all, seem weighty enough to make it very possible that the two are different events happening at different times. If this be the case, this view harmonizes well with the fact that the Church is nowhere to be found in the very detailed Tribulation section of Revelation 4-19. This view also harmonizes well with the fact that there must be a time period allowed for people to be saved and then enter the Millennial Kingdom in nonglorified bodies.
The idea of a "pretribulation rapture" is terribly dangerous to any who should live to see the end times: it will blind those who believe in it to the true nature of the Anti-Christ. They will reason that the tool of the Evil One wearing a Christ-like mask cannot be the Anti-Christ because the rapture hasn't occured yet.
I mean, really!
Leaving His Word in the hands of his saints, for two millennia now — when "the Fathers" had already thought and formulated every truth that could be learned, perfectly, in just the first two or three centuries!
What was He thinking??!
You owe a lot to these Church Fathers---you and 200 million other selfappointed popes that today privately interpret scripture and prophecy to their own satisfaction.
Play "telephone" if you will, and kid yourself that you have a "richer message" because a million hands have corrupted the original.
Me, I'll stick with direct appeals to the Source.
That raises the question, though: who interprets the Fathers?
If God was so inept in communication that nobody could understand Him after the first few centuries, BUT everybody can understand "the Fathers" — how did they succeed where He failed?
So when the Orthoborg/Romanist says, "You little pope, you! You want us all to believe what YOU SAY the Bible says! We have the Fathers!" — one proper response would be, "Well, you have what YOU SAY the Fathers SAY God SAID in the Bible. You'll have to forgive me if I simply rest directly on what God said."
Dan
That is erroneous.
I do think, however, that those who sat at the feet of the apostles, the 1st generation converts, had a special vantage point and offer a unique insight.
Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1 Corinthians 15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the ~LAST~ trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
However, it's the guys who trumpet this supposed 'literal hermeneutic' who attempt to tell us that the 'trumpet' that the infallible Word of God literally tells us is the ~LAST~ trumpet is not ~really~ the last trumpet! LOL!
More evidence of the ~selective~ use of the 'literal hermeneutic' by those who 'trumpet' (LOL) it the loudest!
(I'm sure you'll find a way, xzins, to explain this one away, as well.)
Jean
At least that has been my experience as an Orthodox Christian.We certainly read and study scripture on our own --but always,always with great caution when attempting to interpret it apart from Holy Tradition and the Church.I understand that your perspective on this is entirely different.Attempts at private("accurate")interpretation has imo led to a embarrasing proliferation of Protestant denominations.Not 25,000 certainly,but even several hundred are too many.And many of the doctrinal differences are not trivial.
I will add, however, that although I believe eschatology is an interesting subject, I believe God's plan from the beginning of time is set and whether we understand it or not, it is going to happen according to His plan.
Do I believe in a pretrib rapture? Yes, I do. How does it affect me in this day and age? It's exciting to think we, as Christians, will be taken out of this world before the tribulation, but my job right now is to share the good news of Jesus Christ with those with whom I come in contact who do not believe in the saving grace of Him who died for me. If the rapture happens before the tribulation, great! If it doesn't, I know that my faith in Jesus Christ will carry me through until He comes for me and I see Him face to face to spend eternity with Him.
I have a very simple faith, but it is firmly grounded in Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior. I know without a doubt where I will spend eternity! When I get there, and how, is not the driving force in my life.
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