Replies

Thank you ultima for your response. I thought your response made a pretty well-reasoned argument for the most part until I reached the following statements:
Very little now separates Catholics from Protestants. A whole generation of young people no longer believes in many of the doctrines once thought to be what essentially defined a Catholic--which seems not at all to bother the Vatican.

As far as I know, this "crisis" has largely been "limited" the "Roman rite" church, and not the "Eastern" rites of the Catholic church (I could be wrong). So you cannot say that conclusively. Also, it seems from my observations of your posts that you seem to be an enthusiast of the "pre-Vatican II" Church. But even this Church hasn't been everlasting. The Tridentine Mass was set in its "current" form at the Council of Trent (hence the name). The liturgies of the Eastern rites (the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom et al) are much older in their current forms than the Tridentine Mass. Do you doubt the validity and tradition of these rites?

I think one major problem here is that a blanket statement is being applied to all Catholics, and in particular, young Catholics (of which I am one). I think the miracle of this situation is that even with all that you have described, there are scores of young people who seek the Truth out, of our faith and our tradition. As much as the "crisis" has "liberalized moral theology" and "ripped-out communion rails," there are young people who are being divinely inspired to seek the Truth out. Many teachings have been left out of the religious education of these young people, yet the seek the Truth out. Why is that?

I think it is because of the individual nature of our Catholic faith. As much as Catholicism is a communal experience (the Mass, our religious upbringing, etc.), we still hear God "calling each one of us by name." While our parents, our extended family, and our Church teach us the tenets of our faith, it is nothing until we hear the call of God ourselves and respond by making the faith our own. This requires a conversion of the heart.

Yes, there might possibly be a revolution going on the Church at this moment. But it is probably MORE due to the inaction of many, than the actions of very few. If these things are supposedly happening because of Vatican II and the actions of the Holy See, there probably wouldn't be in as much of a problem. No, we are at this point, in my opinion, because we let the secular rule too much of our civilization, and as a result, opportunists ("liberation" theory theologians, leftists, peverts, et al) saw their chance to corrupt the Church when the Council met and in its wake, and make up their own rules as they saw fit. In response, too many of us have been complacent, and not have done our best to teach our offspring what Catholics believe. As Burke also said, "They only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." The Church has survived through far worse times. What we can do without is the corrupt intentions of the opportunists and the rantings from all sides, and trust in God. My "mottos" are the following:
Ex fide et ratione, Dominus(in other words, you will find the Lord through faith and reason, which is the "legacy" of St. Thomas Aquinas) and Vive Jesus (Live Jesus, a command)

Any takers in response to posts #122 and 123? (read #118 as well to see the origin of this part of the discussion)

But even this Church hasn't been everlasting.

Oops, there is a language problem here. This should say "But even the Church in this form hasn't been everlasting." The Church was founded by Christ almost 2,000 years ago, and it was, is, and will be everlasting.

Let me answer you point by point. Of course I don't doubt the validity of any of the eastern rites. There has never been any question that the Orthodox have a validly ordained priesthood. Their bishops are validly consecrated since they are in the line of apostolic succession, just as ours are. In turn, the priests they ordain are validly ordained. Their Masses therefore are also valid.

As for the Tridendine Mass, Pius V only codified the Mass at the Council of Trent. It had already been in existence for at least a thousand years before that, its Canon having been fixed as far back as the fifth century. Some of its prayers, in fact, go back to the apostolic age--the Kyrie, for instance. That is one of the great comforts and joys of attending such a Mass--one is carried back in time to the early Church at the time of the Roman Empire. Most Catholics don't realize this. The term "Tridentine" itself is a deliberate misnomer. It is called this by modern liturgists to devalue its antiquity and to suggest it only goes back four hundred years. But in truth it is very much older than this, the Tridentine Council having only codified it at that time.

The rest of your post was beautiful. God seems to be speaking to you indeed, when you express that kind of attraction to the truth.

My mention of the Orthodox was not meant to exclude the eastern rites of the Catholic Church. All are valid and ancient. Regarding the protestantization of Catholic youth--a Gallup poll ten years ago found that two out of three Catholics no longer believe in the Real Presence. There can be no doubt this has been because of the institution of the Novus Ordo Mass.