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The Twenty Mysteries of the Rosary?
Seattle Catholic ^ | November 8, 2002 | John Vennari

Posted on 11/09/2002 9:56:20 PM PST by ultima ratio

The Twenty Mysteries of the Rosary? by John Vennari

The Apostolic Letter opens the door for a "pastoral approach" to the Rosary that is "positive, impassioned and creative - as shown by World Youth Days". In other words, a nod is given to a jazzed-up Rosary for the "youth".

"When one lives by novelty, there will always have to be a new novelty." - Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

On October 16, 2002, Pope John Paul II marked the 24th Anniversary of his papacy with the release of the Apostolic Letter Rosarium Virginis Mariae, in which he proclaimed a "Year of the Rosary" from October 2002 to October 2003. The document also contained a major innovation from a Pope whose Pontificate has been marked by a steady stream of novelties. He announced that he would add five new mysteries to the Rosary.

Word of the new mysteries was reported first on October 14 by various news agencies claiming that information was leaked from Vatican sources.

Father Richard John Neuhaus from First Things magazine found these early reports hard to believe, and told The Chicago Tribune that the Pope was not likely to alter the Rosary. "That he would suggest," said Neuhaus "or even declare some kind of official change to the Rosary is totally atypical, totally out of character." Neuhaus then said that the Pope does not have the authority to mandate changes in such a prayer.1

Father Neuhaus is correct that a Pope cannot mandate such changes, but he is mistaken to claim that the Pope's change of the Rosary would be "out of character" for this Pontiff of post-Conciliar aggiornamento. Even the secular press recognizes John Paul II as a man with a passion for setting papal precedents.

The New York Times' Frank Bruni wrote on October 15: "Time and again, Pope John Paul II has boldly gone where other Popes have not: a synagogue, a ski slope, distant countries with tiny populations. Tomorrow, he will apparently cross another frontier, making a significant change in the Rosary, a signature method of Catholic prayer for many centuries." 2

Bruni failed to mention that John Paul is also the first Pope to kiss the Koran,3 participate in rock'n'roll liturgies,4 allow Altar Girls, permit "lay ministers" to distribute Communion at his Papal Mass,5 suggest a "common martyrology" that contains Catholics and non- Catholics, praise documents that call the need for non- Catholics to convert to the Catholic Church an "outdated ecclesiology," 6 take part in "inculturated" ceremonies that includes pagan ritual,7 and convoke pan-religious prayer meetings that include Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Snake-worshipers.8

On the same theme, Rueters said, "Changing one of Christianity's most fundamental prayers after nearly a millennium will be a typical way for the 82- year-old Pope to crown 24 years of a pontificate marked by bold initiatives sometimes taken against the advice of aides." 9

The "new mysteries" of the Rosary took everyone by surprise. Thus I have postponed publication of Part III of my World Youth Day series10 in order to comment on this latest "bold initiative".

The Apostolic Letter

Two weeks previously, the pontiff announced he was preparing a document to stress the value of the Rosary. He urged the faithful to recite the Rosary, including together as families. John Paul said then that he wanted people to "rediscover the beauty and depth of this prayer".

The Pope, for a good part of the Apostolic Letter was true to his word. Much of Rosarium Virginis Mariae is praiseworthy, even edifying. How can one argue with the promulgation of a "Year of the Rosary" in order to revitalize practice of this Holy devotion? How can one find fault with the Pope's call to pray the Rosary for peace? How can one complain when the Pope laments that families are fragmented, that they often get together only to watch television, and that they should set some time aside to pray the Rosary together instead?

Also of interest was the Pope's frequent references to Blessed Bartholomew Longo (1841-1926) who was baptized Catholic, left the faith to become a satanic priest, and then repented, converted back to Catholicism and became an apostle of the Rosary. This is a beautiful lesson that conversion is possible even in apparently hopeless cases.

It is probable that the Letter will do much good in revitalizing Rosary devotion. Tens-of-thousands of Catholics who do not follow the details of Vatican events, will simply learn through the press, or from parish priests, that the Pope wants a renewed devotion to the Rosary and they will comply. I have little doubt that this Letter will produce its desired goal to inspire more Catholics in this holy exercise.

Yet at the same time, countless Catholics are baffled at the unnecessary addition of five new mysteries. What is this strange post-conciliar belief among today's Church leaders that Catholics will not find a traditional devotion interesting unless John Paul updates it? Why is it thought necessary to disfigure our devotions in order to capture a Catholic's attention? Why was it requisite for the Pope to put his personal stamp on the Rosary, rather than simply promote it as is: as did all the Popes before him, as did countless saints, and as did the Mother of God at Fatima?

The New Mysteries

The addition proposed by the Pope, called the Five Luminous Mysteries, also called the "Mysteries of Light," center on the public life of Christ. They are:

the Baptism of Christ in Jordan, the Wedding Feast at Cana, the Announcement of the Kingdom, the Transfiguration, the Institution of the Eucharist as the sacramental expression of the Paschal Mystery. These new mysteries, according to John Paul, are to be placed between the Joyful and Sorrowful Mysteries.

The Pope says that these additions are not mandatory, and explains his reason for the change. "I believe" he writes, "that to bring out fully the Christological depth of the Rosary, it would be suitable to make an addition to the traditional pattern which, while left to the freedom of individuals and communities, could broaden it to include the mysteries of Christ's public ministry between His Baptism and His Passion." 11

Do you know of any Catholic, any saint, any Pope who ever considered the Rosary "lacking" in Christological depth? Did not the saints and the Popes constantly speak of the excellence of the Rosary? Did they ever suggest a radical addition to alter the structure of the Rosary in order to "improve" what was already excellent?

Reaction to the new mysteries has been predictable: everything from traditional Catholics who call it an "outrage," to Medjugorje followers who claim it "bears all the hallmarks of Divine inspiration". Once again, the much-vaunted "Pope of unity" has launched a novelty that divides Catholics.

And the question is, why?

Perhaps we should first ask, why not change the Rosary?

The Psalter Assaulted

A constant characteristic of the pre-Vatican II Popes was to abhor novelty and to safeguard tradition, including traditional devotions.

Thus, if one could go back in time and ask any of the pre-Vatican II Popes why they never added "new mysteries" to the Rosary, the answer is easy to presume. "Because," the pre-conciliar Pope would say, "if I add 5 new mysteries, I will have to add 5 new decades. If I add five new decades, then the Rosary can no longer be called 'Our Lady's Psalter'. Now Catholic tradition, my holy predecessors and Our Blessed Mother referred to the Rosary as Her 'Psalter', because the 150 Hail Mary's of the 15-decade Rosary correspond to the 150 Psalms of David. It would be audacious of me to add 5 decades. This would be the decimation of the entire concept of Mary's 'Psalter', a term hallowed by centuries of usage, a term that explains the origin and essence of the Rosary, a term used by the Queen of Heaven Herself. Further, if I make this radical change to the Rosary, then what is to prevent more radical changes in the future?"

The History of Mary's Psalter

The entire history of the Rosary is bound up with the 150 Psalms of the Old Testament, otherwise known as the Psalter of David. From the dawn of Catholic history, monks and hermits prayed these Psalms as part of their daily liturgical life.

Saint Benedict, in his Holy Rule, explains that the monks of the desert recited the 150 Psalms every day. Saint Benedict arranged the Psalms for his monks so that all 150 would be recited in one week.12 This became the Divine Office (Breviary) that priests and religious recited every day until the post-conciliar aggiornamento revolutionized both Breviary and Mass.

The story of "Mary's Psalter" reportedly begins with the Irish monks in the 7th Century. These monks divided the 150 Psalms of David into a Na tri coicat format of three groups of fifty. Arranged in such a way, the "fifties" served both as reflective and corporal/penitential prayer.13

The people of the Middle Ages in their great love of Our Lady set to fashioning "Rosariums" in Her honor. They composed Psalms in praise of Mary to match the 150 Psalms of David. St. Anselm of Canterbury (1109) made such a Rosary. In the 13th Century, St. Bonaventure divided his 150 Marian Psalms into three groups. The first group commenced with the word Ave, the next with Salve, and the final fifty Psalms each commented with the word Gaude. Such Rosaries of praise took the name of Our Lady's Psalter.14

It was not long before the custom of reciting Hail Mary's became the substitute of reciting the Psalms in praise of Our Lady. "By the 13th Century" writes the Redemptorist Father James Galvin, "the number of Aves was set at one hundred and fifty to equal the number of the Psalms of David." 15

Saint Thomas Aquinas explains that the Psalter of David, composed as it is of one hundred and fifty Psalms, is divided into three equal parts of fifty Psalms each. These three equal parts represent figuratively the three stages in which the faithful find themselves: the state of penance, the state of justice, the state of glory. Likewise, explains Father Anthony Fuerst, "the Rosary of Mary is divided into three parts of fifty Hail Mary's each in order to express fully the phrases of the life of the faithful: penance, justice and glory." 16

Heaven itself declared the immeasurable value of this Psalter. In 1214, Our Blessed Mother told Saint Dominic to "preach My Psalter" in order to rekindle faith, to convert sinners and to crush stubborn heresy. Saint Louis de Montfort tells the story in his magnificent work, The Secret of the Rosary.

"Saint Dominic," writes Saint Louis, "seeing that the gravity of the peoples' sin was hindering the conversion of the Albigensians, withdrew to a forest near Toulouse where he prayed unceasingly for three days and three nights. During this time he did nothing but weep and do harsh penances in order to appease the anger of Almighty God. He used his discipline so much that his body was lacerated, and finally he fell into a coma."

Our Lady then appeared to him, accompanied by three angels. She said, "Dear Dominic, do you know which weapon the Blessed Trinity wants to use to reform the world?"

Saint Dominic asked Her to tell him. Our Lady responded:

"I want you to know that, in this kind of warfare, the battering ram has always been the Angelic Psalter which is the foundation stone of the New Testament. Therefore if you want to reach these hardened souls and win them over to God, preach My Psalter." 17

Our Lady's words contain two special points of interest:

She uses the language of the Church militant. She does not speak of the Rosary in a sentimental manner in order to achieve good feelings or pan-religious unity. No, She refers to it as battering ram against heresy.

She twice uses the term "Psalter", which is the Rosary designated as 150 Aves that link it to the Psalms of David. Regarding the Rosary's traditional structure, Msgr. George Shea writes, "Because its 150 Hail Mary's correspond to the 150 Psalms of the Psalter, the complete Rosary is sometimes called Our Lady's Psalter. In fact, the latter was its common designation down to the end of the 15th Century, while 'Rosary' was reserved for a part, i.e., a third, of Our Lady's Psalter." 18

As late as the last quarter of the 15th Century, Blessed Alaus de Rupe protested vigorously against the use of the terms "Rosario," "Chapelet" or "Corono," and insisted that the title of Our Lady's Psalter be retained.19 Msgr. Shea points out that the first indication from a Pope that the Psalter of Mary is commonly called "Rosary" is found in the Apostolic Constitution of Pope Leo X, Pastor Aeterni dated October 6, 1520, over three hundred years after Our Lady spoke to Saint Dominic.

The Constant Language of the Popes

The term "Psalter" of Mary, as a link to the 150 Psalms of David, is what we find consistently from the Popes throughout the centuries.

The Apostolic Constitution of Pope Leo X, Pastor Aeterni October 6, 1520, uses the term "Psalter of Mary" in connection to the Rosary.20

Pope Saint Pius V wrote in Consueverunt Romani of September 17, 1569, "And so Dominic looked to that simple way of praying and beseeching God, accessible to all and wholly pious, which is called the Rosary, or Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary, in which the same most Blessed Virgin is venerated by the angelic greeting repeated one hundred and fifty times, that is, according to the number of the Davidic Psalter, and by the Lord's Prayer with each decade." 21

Pope Leo XIII wrote "Just as by the recitation of the Divine Office, priests offer a public, constant, and most efficacious supplication; so the supplication offered by the members of this Sodality in the recitation of the Rosary, or 'Psalter of Our Lady' ..." 22

Pope Leo XIII later said, "The formula of the Rosary, too, is excellently adapted to prayer in common, so that it has been styled, not without reason, the 'Psalter of Mary'." 23

Pope Pius XI wrote in his Encyclical Ingravescentibus Malis. "Among the various supplications with which we successfully appeal to the Virgin Mother of God, the Holy Rosary without doubt occupies a special and distinct place. This prayer, which some call the Psalter of the Virgin or Breviary of the Gospel and of Christian life, was described and recommended by Our Predecessor of happy memory, Leo XIII ..." 24

Sadly, Pope John Paul II has made the term "Psalter of Mary" with its rightful connection to the Psalter of David, as obsolete as fund drives for Pagan Babies. Anyone who accepts the twenty-decade Rosary, and still refers to the Rosary as Mary's Psalter, will use the term divested of meaning. Why introduce this destabilization? Would not Pope John Paul show more respect to the pious sentiments of Catholics worldwide, to his predecessors and to the Mother of God by leaving Her Psalter at peace?

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To: Maximilian
Let's say we lived in a city -- let's call it "New Jerusalem." It's a beautiful city which has been built up over 2000 years. We love our city and are devoted to it to the point that we would sacrifice our lives for it.

But at this particular point of history, the city is besieged on all sides. It has suffered other sieges over the course of its long history, but this is perhaps the most dangerous situation yet.

<> Which generation hasn't said that?<>

Enemies attack it relentlessly from without.

<> Nothing new under the sun<>

Even worse, it is known that there are numerous traitors who are undermining it from within.

<> There have always been both wheat and tares<>

The city has suffered devastating casualties with the loss of tens of thousands of officers and millions of citizens.

<> Desertion is never defensible<>

Do we serve our city by ignoring the problems?

<> They aren't being ignored just because one doesn't throw down the spiritual arms of prayer and obedience and join the deseretion.<>

Is it true loyalty to pretend that nothing is wrong?

<> No faithful Catholic in Frepperville is ignorant nor do they pretend nothing is wrong. Conversely, no faithful Catholic willl fail to acknowledge the good they see about them<>

Will we save our city from destruction by happy talk divorced from reality?

<> We will not "save" the city. That is not in our control and thinking it is in our control to save is the first step to wrong actions. General Lefebvre was a traitor, not a hero. There is no statute of him in the New Jerusalem<>

Let's say that the citizens of the city believe that God has promised that the city will never be entirely destroyed.

<> Tautology<>

Do we fail for that reason to combat the enemies, both external and internal.

<> Defeat first the enemy within ourselves<>

Do we have any less obligation to fight to the death?

<> Spiritual physician, heal thyself<>

Or is God's promise perhaps contingent on OUR faithfulness?

<> Faithfulness and obedience and maintaining the Bonds of Unity, Worship and Authority are a fulltime job for the Church militant. That, and turning a deaf ear to the recruitment campaigns of the traitor Generals<>

The citizens of "New Jerusalem" may delight in their city, but they are called to be "militant," and they fail in their duty if they shirk the necessary tasks when times are at their bleakest.

<> Pray, Pay, Obey...and don't act above your paygrade<>

61 posted on 11/11/2002 5:38:20 AM PST by Catholicguy
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To: LadyDoc
Please don't preach the Gospel according to Oprah Winfrey to me or the Princess Diana Sermon on the Mount. I am well aware of the need for corporal works of mercy, to feed the hungry and clothe the naked and reach out a helping hand. That is not the argument. Social concern for others is not the whole of Catholicism. If it were, we need only all become Democrats to achieve salvation by pushing more and more social welfare programs. But we are also called to personal sanctity and to worship God--and this where our beliefs fit in and our respect for Catholic tradition. What is being preached nowadays is not the Catholic faith. It is a hybid thing, a watered-down belief system that corresponds to ordinary humanistic concern for our fellow man, but not to what has been transmitted from apostolic times, particularly by means of the ancient Latin Mass. But if all the faith means to you is having a social regard for others, then it is no wonder you support the new religion.
62 posted on 11/11/2002 5:44:15 AM PST by ultima ratio
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To: ultima ratio; All
Fascinating. As luck would have it, just a few days before His Holiness released this Apostolic Letter, our newly ordained priest gave me a copy of de Montford's, The Secret of the Rosary.

Initially, I was excited about the introduction of five, new mysteries. Then, as I began reading de Montford, I, too, became disturbed about the change from the traditional 150, which corresponds so nicely to the Psalms, to 200, also. I even joked with our other priest that now de Montford would have to go back and revise his book. (Yes, I know he is long gone from this world.)

And that got me to thinking. As others in this thread have pointed out, the addition of this five, new mysteries does, in a way, devalue much beautiful devotional literature like de Montford's.

I'm kind of relieved to see this article since I thought I was the only one disturbed by this. Let me see if I can offer an analogy.

Recently, the church in which my wife and I were married was renovated. Now, to be fair, the new part is NOT one of these theatre-in-the-round garage monstrosities which so blemish many 'renovated' Catholic Churches. Indeed, its quite beautiful in and of itself.

However, its just sort of 'stuck on' to the old Church. It doesn't really match the previous architecture. As another priest has commented on it, rather wittily I think, "some parts of the new church are less intolerable than others." Its not that the new church addition isn't beautiful, standing alone it would be great. Its just that rammed on to the old church it looks, well, weird, and this "weirdness" detracts from the beauty of each part.

I'm worried these new mysteries could do the same. And I'm beginning to think His Holiness is approaching much of his dealings with the Church in the same manner. Rather than directly confronting the current 'archeticture of the Church,' he seems to be just trying to make things better by tacking on new things, hoping they'll cover up the actual problems.

Read de Montford's, The Secret of the Rosary. His love and devotion -the tender care he brings to his subject- cannot help but lead one to wonder if maybe tacking on five new mysteries may not be as good an idea as it initially sounds.

63 posted on 11/11/2002 5:46:40 AM PST by AlguyA
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To: All
Also, allow me to note I, too, am disturbed by His Holiness' suggestion concerning the Fatima prayer. I realize he doesn't come right out and say, "drop it." Indeed, he commends it but then suggests substituting some other sort of reflection. The language is, at the least, ambiguous.

Now, here's my problem. Its not hard for me to imagine some in my parish latching on to this as an excuse to drop the Fatima prayer when we say the Rosary. Consider: a number of people in our parish, when saying the last sentence of the Hail Mary, already say, "pray for OUR sinners, now and at the hour of our death."(BTW, has anyone else ever heard of this?)

It seems obvious to me these individuals have a problem saying 'US sinners.' Maybe they don't like to feel bad about themselves. The point is, I have no doubt they would just love to do away with the whole, "Oh my Jesus, save US from the fires of Hell and lead all souls to heaven, especially those who have most need of thy mercy," business. I fear His Holiness has just given them the ammunition to do this.

64 posted on 11/11/2002 6:07:43 AM PST by AlguyA
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To: AlguyA
<> I have that book. And I agree with the Pope. Both St. Louis and the Pope are correct and I'd be willing to bet St. Louis would be the first to tell you the Pope is correct<>
65 posted on 11/11/2002 6:47:42 AM PST by Catholicguy
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To: Dajjal
If the Blessed Mother had thought that there was a "huge gaping hole" in her Rosary, you'd think she would have mentioned it to St Dominic or the children of Fatima or somebody!

Well Said. I also think the new Stations of the Cross is ridiculous.
66 posted on 11/11/2002 6:53:16 AM PST by sspxsteph
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To: Siobhan
A great post! I second that motion.
67 posted on 11/11/2002 7:09:45 AM PST by BlackElk
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To: ultima ratio
I"m going to break one of my hard and fast rules and actually directly respond...

Change is fine if it is evolution, not revolution.

EVERY evolutionary change begins with some sort of revolt.

The change in the rosary is significant only because it is still another break with tradition.

As the Rosary evolved before now, there were breaks with tradition. All religious/social/political evolution requires breaks with tradition. This is just more of the same.

This is a papacy, remember, that has rejected the Church's own past in favor of every conceivable novelty.

I think you attack because you had high hopes and they were dashed. No, there's been much more return to tradition than not, much to many people's dismay, at least in MY circles. It's just been very quiet and slow, which usually ensures more success than loud, flashy and public.

The result has been apostasies at the highest levels and systemic corruption.

The corruption existed long before this pope ever took office - and will exist long after him. It's the nature of power, whether we like it or not. None of us has any control over it, either. And rooting it out, is never easy, in fact, it's usually downright impossible. These people are only human.
68 posted on 11/11/2002 7:20:00 AM PST by Desdemona
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To: Siobhan
Thank you, dearie, for a great post.
69 posted on 11/11/2002 7:21:24 AM PST by Desdemona
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To: Siobhan; patent
It's instructive how you both complain about what traditionalists have done to your Catholic website. If you are so upset by such a trivial intrusion as myself--how must you suppose traditionalist Catholics feel as they have been forced to watch their beloved Church systematically dismantled, the Mass of the Ages banished, the great religious orders destroyed by unspeakable corruptions?
70 posted on 11/11/2002 7:22:10 AM PST by ultima ratio
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To: AlguyA
Consider: a number of people in our parish, when saying the last sentence of the Hail Mary, already say, "pray for OUR sinners, now and at the hour of our death."(BTW, has anyone else ever heard of this?)

NO. And it does drive me nuts when people drop the word "men" from the Creed, too. It changes the meaning of the sentence.
71 posted on 11/11/2002 7:23:54 AM PST by Desdemona
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To: ultima ratio
I'm not complaining. I would think you'll notice that while you've tried to convince me to go away a couple times, I just tell you to get used to my responses to you.

I like having you around.

72 posted on 11/11/2002 7:41:27 AM PST by patent
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Comment #73 Removed by Moderator

Comment #74 Removed by Moderator

To: ultima ratio
Stop the pretension that "we don't get your message." We get you message alright. We absolutely reject your analysis and your conclusions as we should.

You take some valid complaints (moving or hiding of tabernacles, removal of communion rails, communion in the hand, substitution of Kumbaya musical pablum or worse for chant and polyphony, pink palace seminaries subsidized and encouraged by lavender bishops and enablers, and add to those a group of hysterical and unfactual claims such as "our theologies have been scrapped", "there is not a single sacrament that has not been overhauled," "our Catholic literature has been scrapped" (really? There are numerous Catholic publishing houses in America such as TAN right here in Rockford which seem to have little problem printing or selling reprints of hard-core Catholic classics), and add to those your complete fantasies as to the notion that soon enough nothing will remain of the original rosary, the Mass has been Protestantized (do we know of any actual Protestant faith that believes that it makes the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross immanent upon the altar as does the rubric of both the Tridentine and the Novus Ordo?).

The piece de resistance is the total lapel-grabbing style (Don't you realize, man, unless you agree with UR that JPII is a heretic and a stooge and a marionette of the international Protestant conspiracy, the international Islamic conspiracy and the international pagan animist conspiracy and maybe even a closet Hebrew (?) since he sends not armies to convert them at the point of a sword, all rolled into one, you are going straight to hell?) Your style seems much closer to that of the interminably self-righteous preachiness of many but thankfully not all of our separated brethren of the deformation variety and of the subtype who take it as their mission to save Catholics from the Scarlet Beast or whatever.

In addition to taking your meds more regularly, I offer the unsolicited advice that you ought to realize that one CAN TOO be both Catholic and socially normal, all at once. Really!

The parish (actually the oratory) to which I and my family belong has only Tridentine Masses (I often attend Novus Ordo elsewhere to remain in touch with the more dominant strain of the Church) and sacraments only according to the Tridentine rite, and communion received only on the tongue, only on the knees and (save for extreme age or handicap) only at the altar rail, only orthodox sermons, with all of our kneelers quite intact, thank you very much, with chant and polyphony and nary a rendition of Kumbaya songs, any of them, TAN has book tables in the basement for the parishioners to purchase all manner of orthodox books as well as Tridentine missals, mantillas which are expected attire for the girls and ladies, rosaries, etc. Neither our pastor nor our saintly Bishop Thomas Doran are describable as apostates. Neither the Koran nor the Togo forest appear in our Oratory. Our parishioners are mostly calm, cool and collected p[eople who feel no desperate desire for personal attention. They live Catholic lives and raise Catholic families without all the hysteria exhibited in other quarters. If you cannot find such a facility near you, you are welcome here if you can restrain yourself from the pope-bashing which is NOT welcome here. If Rockford is not your cup of tea, there are many other "faith communities" like it in many parts of the country and the number increases regularly.

You might consider a different tack: kwitcherbellyachin' and take advantage of the opportunities which have grown under the pope you love to deride. Put your life where your mouth or keyboard is. Personally, I don't care if JPII does an Irish Jig in Outer Mongolia as the centerpiece of a hootenanny or folk music concert with a balloon festival and dancing bears and jugglers nearby. I trust his judgment. You should too.

As you ought to realize, it is very, very lonely out there without a pope and trying, Protestant-style to run a do-it-yourself magisterium.

75 posted on 11/11/2002 7:58:47 AM PST by BlackElk
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To: Bud McDuell
<> sanity. unity<>
76 posted on 11/11/2002 8:02:28 AM PST by Catholicguy
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Comment #77 Removed by Moderator

To: sandyeggo
<> sandy, one of the most scandalous acts a "traditionalist" is forced to endure is witnessing a faithful Catholic enjoying themselves. You appear to be a normal Catholic in union with your Bishop and Rome and you enjoy yourself. You are considered a dupe and the "traditionalists" flatter themsleves they are the Church militant-without-whom-we-would-perish-and-why-in-the-hell-don't-we-not-only-recognise-that-fact-but-praise-them-for-their-loyalty?

Look, for some "traditionalists, unless you are in a feverish state of finger-pointing and denouncing, you are a dupe of the devil. These sorts of sites,Seattle Catholic, Diocese Report etc,are not about confirming one's Faith. They are about the businesss of hysteria, overreaction, hyperbole, chicken-littling etc. They really do appear to think if they don't "act" all is lost. Such Faith:)

Black Elk described his Parish. I go to a Pauline Rite Parish with a great solid, orthodox, Priest whose sermons are superior to any I ever heard at an Indult Mass. There are PLENTY of young couples with many children who sit quietly and attentively at Mass. We have many Blacks, Hispanics and others at our Masses. We have several Jewish converts at out Masses. I attend my Pastor's Bible Study - I will be there tonight studying Galatians. I have never met a SINGLE "traditionalist" who knew one-half as much as he does about the Bible

Starting in December, I will be going nightly to one of his retreats focused on how to live in closer union with Jesus. My Bishop is smashing, Bishop Sean Patrick O'Malley. There is a LOT of good news out there. A corner has been turned but so-called trads won't admit it. They feel too important in their role of "warrior" assuring the Churhc of its salvation. If normalcy reigns, who would pay attention to these self-annointed "saviours" anymore?

Sandyeggo, you are a great witness here. Sane, normal, happy. We need 999 more Million just like you. God Bless you<>

78 posted on 11/11/2002 8:23:58 AM PST by Catholicguy
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To: BlackElk
Do we know of any actual Protestant faith that believes that it makes the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross immanent upon the altar as does the rubric of both the Tridentine and the Novus Ordo?

High Church Anglicanism believes in that same sacrifice while trying to reconcile the Mass with Reformed theology. It is invalid, but they believe it all the same.

Many Anglo-Catholic churches in England also celebrate the Novus Ordo, omitting only references to the Pope in the eucharistic prayers.

The problem with the Church is not one of Protestantization per se. The problem appears to be that most dioceses are trying to recreate the Anglican experiment of reconciling fundamentally inconsistent theologies within one Church.

79 posted on 11/11/2002 8:25:54 AM PST by Loyalist
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To: BlackElk
Dear BlackElk,

"If you cannot find such a facility near you,..."

Sadly, according to his own words, ultima used to belong to a parish that celebrated the indult Mass. Because the Holy Father made prudential and disciplinary decisions with which ultima disagreed, he left the parish, and the Catholic Church, to join with the schismatics.

To me, that's a very sad thing.


sitetest
80 posted on 11/11/2002 8:26:05 AM PST by sitetest
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