Posted on 11/09/2002 9:56:20 PM PST by ultima ratio
<>We ought to listen to those with no Teaching authority? Is the POpe blind? In what way does this hysteria lead to normalcy?<>
2. It is simply false to claim that there are MANY communities like yours. Out of the tens of thousands of parishes in the US, there are perhaps half a dozen. Even among the FSSP parishes, only a few are canonically established, meaning the indult could be withdrawn from the others at a moment's notice. Your parish sounds like heaven. But only a tiny fraction of US Catholics have access to a comparable situation. You seem remarkably unfeeling towards the rest.
<> He invited you to join him. That is very "feeling" tpwards you<>
3. Not only is your community practically unique in the United States, half the dioceses in the US have never implemented the indult at all. A woman who works for The Latin Mass magazine cannot herself attend the Latin Mass because in the well-populated part of California where she lives, the closest Latin Mass is 3 hours away. Are you telling these people to "quit your bellyaching"? Is every Catholic in the US required to move to Rockford, IL?
<>No. Too cold. They can move to my Parish in sunnny Palm Beach County. I think sitetest's Parish is pretty good also. Desdemona's also; sandyeggo's also, patent's also (getting to half a dozen pretty rapidly, huh?<>
<> The changes made by Cranmer were INTENDED to decieve. Are you saying Pope Paul VI intended to deceive Catholics and that he didn't believe in Sacrifice or the Real Presence? Please put your cards on the table - as a self-described militant ought <>
The Anglicans or whatever are not Catholics whatever they may pretend. They have no priests because they have no apostolic succession.
This was defined by Pope Leo XIII. But so many other teachings of Pope Leo were overturned by Vatican II, why not this one also?
<> Name a single one "over-turned" by Vatican Two. Document. <>
If Anglican orders are invalid, then why did Pope John Paul II invite the Archbishop of Canterbury to join him in opening the Holy Door to inaugurate the Jubilee Year?
<> You tell us. Don't pussyfoot around with sly innuendo. Remember, you are a militant<>
According to Catholic teaching, he's just another English layman, only more deluded than the rest. 100 posted on 11/11/2002 1:57 PM EST by Maximilian
We were discussing canonically-established Latin Mass parishes such as the one described by BlackElk. None of those you mentioned would qualify. And if you're in Palm Beach, aren't you on your third bishop in the last two years? Are these the men you want teaching "Catholic sex ed" to your children?
As members of the Communion of Saints, all Christians here on Earth are members of the "Church militant."
BTW, we both knew you had painted yourself into a corner with that post #100. Your response to me indicates you are not the warrior you imagine yourself to be. <>
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that he is one of them Irish Catholics. ;o)
Even though Burke was talking about the state, I think his words apply to the religious and cultural realms as well. (I may be criticized for quoting Burke because he isn't Catholic, but oh well. Wisdom knows no boundaries.)
I can understand completely where you are coming from, ultima. I grew up in the Novus Ordo era, without ANY knowledge of the Tridentine Mass. However, my parish was rather traditional, so when I was in the parish grade school, all students were required to go to Mass EVERY day during Lent, and we had regular Stations of the Cross and Benediction and Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament on Fridays during Lent. We also celebrated traditions such as Forty Hours and the symbolic coronation of Mary during the month of May. Unfortunately, there isn't as much of an empathesis on this for the current students at my parish (due to a change in the principal and pastor), but all of this had a significant impact on the development of my faith.
As I went on to high school, I received a religious education in an all-male environment with the Oblates of St. Francis de Sales as my primary religious teachers. This reenforced my traditionalist sentiments. More recently, my striving towards a more traditionalist celebration of my faith has been fomented by the fact that the Catholic chapel on my campus is rather "liberal" or "modernist" in character (guitar music during Mass, "inclusionary" language sometimes during the Readings). Out of my own free will, I have looked for alternatives. At the moment, I don't have much free reign to look for them, due to my location and situation in life (full-time college student). But very recently, I've been driven by my new-found devotion to the Divine Mercy, the writings of Thomas Aquinas and G.K. Chesterton, and learning more about the Eastern Rites of Catholicism.
Finally getting to my point, I think that what we have been growing through over the past forty years or so is another period of change within the Church. There are many ways to interpret change, and that (added to human weakness and hardheadedness) has caused many of the problems we are dealing with now. While the beliefs we hold are eternal (they are given to us by God through revelation and God acting through the Church), traditions have been slowly changing over the millenia. The way we celebrate Mass now, or even fifty years ago, is NOT the way Mass was celebrated originally. As the Church has adapted to various situation, times, and places, the traditions have changed. Because of this, debates and conflicts have resulted, as they are now. But the miraculous aspect through all these trials and tribulations is that the Church has SURVIVED all these calamities. This alone can show us that God "has our back." As Burke stated above, if the Church is without any means of change, it is without means of its conservation. The Church was "forced" to change (or in reality adapt) to circumstances that cause much peril. One such time was the Protestant Reformation, when heroes such as St. Charles Borromeo and St. Francis de Sales sprung up to the challenge and preserved the Church. I think we are witnessing another such time right now. We just need to put our entire trust in God and stop relying on our incomplete human perspective. We will get through this time, as we have so many times in the past.
The other big problem in this widening debate, as in the arguments over what "conservatism" is, is that people are claiming that they have the "true" Catholicism. I think in most cases, all sides to this debate have vaild points. It is when we're reduced to name-calling and making claims of exclusivity that we reach crisis point. The frame of our argument is mostly within the "Roman" rite of Catholicism. At the same time, however, we have NUMEROUS other rites of Catholicism that have different traditions and ways of celebrating the Sacraments. They are as much ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC as we are. I don't think many people would question that. Also, the Church has held that the Eastern Orthodox have valid lines of apostolic succession, many commonalities with the "Western" church, etc. Are they any less "Christian" than us? I'd say not.
Another thing we need to remember is that people have different ways of expressing their faith, even within the Catholic tradition. Some are more "traditional" than others. Some of us belong to the different rites of the Church. As long as they hold the basic tenets of our faith (there is ONE God, Jesus is His Son and our Redeemer, the Eucharist is actually the Body and Blood of Jesus, there are Seven Sacraments, etc.), they are CATHOLIC. The only people we can validly criticize on all grounds are the "Catholics in name only" and the separatists of the various Protestant faiths. They have been mindnumbed and blinded by half truths. We need to stop nitpicking about everything. The great enemies to our faith are assaulting us at every turn while we fight amongst ourselves. I think the demonstration that even with "decrees" such as Rosarium Virginis Mariae (which was more of a suggestion than anything else), that "old ways" still find a way to continue shows that even though we have a one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church, God has given us free will (checked by dogma) to worship and praise Him in our favorite ways.
"Out of the darkness of my life, so much frustrated, I put before you the one great thing to love on earth: the Blessed Sacrament ... There you will find romance, glory, honour, fidelity, and the true way of all your loves upon earth ... which every man's heart desires."
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