Making Your Calling and Election Sure

http://www.heatandlight.org/slj/new_testament/2peter/tape1b.htm ^ | S. Lewis Johnson, Jr.

[RnMomof7]

Me either seems that should be our first thought ..gratitude..

[The Grammarian]

Some of us still view the term with its Calvinistic connotations and believe it a bad thing. When we think of it without the Calvinistic connotations, I think most of us can echo the words of Charles Wesley: And Can It Be.

[RnMomof7]

My favorite Hymn..it makes me cry..

**Long my imprisoned spirit lay, Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;**

total depravity

Thine eye diffused a quickening ray— I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;**

regeneration, a total act of God

My chains fell off, my heart was free,

the will no longer bound now saved

I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
My chains fell off, my heart was free,

Our response to the grace and mercy of God

I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.

Regeneration and then salvation the correct order of election:>)

[drstevej]

My favorite hymn too.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

If you have truly believed in the Lord Jesus, that is the proof that you are elect, that you have been called.

Belief-o-matic? What about a knowledge belief, instead of a heart belief?

BigMack

[The Grammarian]

It's probably my favorite hymn, too, Immortal, Invisible, God Only Wise comes a distant second.

[SoothingDave]

We can never know that we are elected of God to eternal life except by manifesting in our lives the fruits of election: faith and virtue, knowledge and temperance, patience and godliness, love of the brethren and that essential love that does not put limits to its object.

Surprise! I agree.

(Now why anyone would call this salvation by "faith alone" is a different question. It is stated here most clearly that we can never know we are saved except that we have good works.)

SD

[WriteOn]

Thanks.

[RnMomof7]

I love "A Mighty Fortress " too

Actually there are LOTS I love..but "And Can It Be" makes me cry...It is a very special Hymn

[RnMomof7]

(Now why anyone would call this salvation by "faith alone" is a different question. It is stated here most clearly that we can never know we are saved except that we have good works.)

Agreed..a dead tree bears no fruit..the fruit show the tree is attached to the root system...the one point might be the source of the works..(it has to be HIM not us..there are lots of very "good" heathans)

[drstevej]

***It is stated here most clearly that we can never know we are saved except that we have good works.***

Faith alone saves. The faith which saves is never alone. Works are the evidence not the basis for salvation. Our security is based upon His work for us.

Analogy (somewhat of a reverse nature): A high fever is evidence we are sick. The fever is not what makes us sick.

Good works are the symptoms that we have the real "disease" -- regeneration (using the analogy). They are the basis for our assurrance -- this is SL Johnson's point.

Still agree?

[SoothingDave]

***It is stated here most clearly that we can never know we are saved except that we have good works.***

Faith alone saves. The faith which saves is never alone. Works are the evidence not the basis for salvation. Our security is based upon His work for us.

I understand what you are saying. We both agree that works are necessary. If, as you say, works are always accompanyining faith, then I still agree.

It is the misguided (IMO) emphasis on justification apart from works that I object to. If one must have evidence of their works in order to know that they are saved, then works are necessary.

One who says they have faith, but has no works to show is only fooling himself. Yet, your emphasis that no works are required for justification would encourage such a person.

The teaching that you must do, as well as profess, is less likely to encourage people to feel that they are justified when they in fact are not.

SD

[drstevej]

***If one must have evidence of their works in order to know that they are saved, then works are necessary.***

Necessary result of salvation? YES
Necessary cause of or grounds for salvation? NO

Justification is distinct from and prior to sanctification; yet it is also inseparably linked to sanctification. RC theology comingles the two.

Further, there is a distinction between security and assurance. We are secure because of His work FOR us alone. Our assurance is based in part upon seeing the evidence of saving faith.

SD, these are distinctions of mammoth proportions! Still agree?

[SoothingDave]

Necessary result of salvation? YES
Necessary cause of or grounds for salvation? NO

Necessary means necessary. You guys, in your quest for "assurance," try to redefine things like "necessary."

Here's the simple definition: Necessary means that without it, things are changed.

In order to be saved, one needs to have faith and works. Works without faith will never bridge the chasm betwen man and God. Faith without works is shallow or illusory.

So if you have faith and works you have salvation. If you remove the works part, you no longer have the salvation.

It is therefore, by the rules of logic and language, necessary to have works to accompany your faith.

QED.

Justification is distinct from and prior to sanctification; yet it is also inseparably linked to sanctification. RC theology comingles the two.

Perhaps so. I see no reason to seperate the two. You guys want to be "assured," that you are "Saved," so you make "Justification" a seperate issue and place all your trust in it.

Rahter than seeing the larger picture that we are justified by being sanctified. We are not, as you guys love to offer, "covered" from our sins, but are actually "cleansed."

We will be worthy to stand in front of God because He has made us actually worthy, not because He pretends we are worthy.

I don't know why anyone would choose an imputed righteousness over actually being made righteous.

Further, there is a distinction between security and assurance. We are secure because of His work FOR us alone. Our assurance is based in part upon seeing the evidence of saving faith.

This is the first I've heard of these terms having different meanings. I'm sure you have Scripture to back this up. Can you clarify for me exactly what the difference is, cause I'm not sure from your example.

SD, these are distinctions of mammoth proportions! Still agree?

Of course not! Did you expect me to? I was trying to show that these "mammoth" differences are actually very subtle at times.

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

You have not been called; and not having been called, you have no assurance. You cannot make your calling and election sure until you have come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Your responsibility is to come.

If one is not of the elect, according to calvinsim this cannot happen.

BigMack

[drstevej]

***Rahter than seeing the larger picture that we are justified by being sanctified.***

You'll love this translation of Romans 8:30...

"and him whom he called, him he also sanctified; and him whom he sanctified, him he also glorified." (Joseph Smith translation)

Our difference (you and I) on this issue in a nutshell is the difference between seeing justification as infused versus imputed righteousness. Hence justification and a sanctification are synonyms for you. For me they are distinct yet inseparably linked works of God.

[editor-surveyor]

"Now why anyone would call this salvation by "faith alone" is a different question. It is stated here most clearly that we can never know we are saved except that we have good works."

Hey this is an easy one Dave; the salvation is not by works, the works are by salvation. - If there are no visible works, then the alleged salvation was not real.

(...not of works, lest any man should boast...)

[editor-surveyor]

"If one is not of the elect, according to calvinsim this cannot happen."

If one is not 'elect' they will not want it to happen. - If you have a true interest in the things of the Lord, then you are elect.

[SoothingDave]

Our difference (you and I) on this issue in a nutshell is the difference between seeing justification as infused versus imputed righteousness. Hence justification and a sanctification are synonyms for you. For me they are distinct yet inseparably linked works of God.

That's what it seems. My goal is sanctification, and I will get there, with the grace of God. I don't need to be told I am "assured" because I am "justified."

Let the sanctification take care of itself and the justification will follow.

(Of course I believe God offers everyone sufficient grace to acheive sanctification, another major difference.)

SD

[SoothingDave]

Hey this is an easy one Dave; the salvation is not by works, the works are by salvation. - If there are no visible works, then the alleged salvation was not real.

Right. So works are necessary for salvation --- we all agree without them that salvation is not "real." No matter hwo much a person wants to believe they are "justified" by faith alone, they still have to get off the sofa and do some works.

They must. It is necessary.

SD