Luther's 95 Thesis Happy Reformation Day

http://www.gty.org/~phil/history/95theses.htm ^ | Martin Luther

[SoothingDave]

No purgatory is a car wash..you go you get cleaned by a little bit of burning....YOU YOU YOU

God bless you, Terry, but you are helplessly ignorant. If the Potter puts His clay into a kiln, to burn off the waste and to perfect the pot, is that a "work" of the clay pot?

Seriously, think about it, please.

SD

[Irisshlass]

Dave how can an INFALLIBLE church make that kind of "mistake" that needs "correcting"? How can a church that is led by the Holy Spirit and is charged with interpretation of the word and will of God make that kind of an error?

How can a church that is infallible NOT listen when a man led of God asks them to look at this error?


Luther a man of God? My church is wrong...you need to get out of myth and face facts..

He condoned polygamy...(Scandal of Philip of Hesse, he used lying and vulgar language that was a repulsed by his fellow Protestant Leaders...On scripture he said Job was actually a fable...Ecc was not complete and too incoherent...Solomon didn't writre his book...thought the story of Johan was monstrous and incrediable..he rejected the canon Hebrews, James, Jude and the Apocalypse..how about the Peasant Revolt of 1525...he said to mow them down, slaughter and stab them openly or in secret...and they were slaughtered 100,000 men killed..He said the Jews would be tormented in Hells deepest depth...he was anti-semite...understanding Nazism is two things...history and influence of Luther..He said Moses was an enemy of Jesus Christ...called them the stupid Ten Commandments...a drunk...and far worst...some actually thought he was possessed.

[RnMomof7]

Dave you want to finish what Jesus Christ could not do..The word of God is clear that he paid the price for you..He paid a price you could never pay

The cross was not about YOU ..it was about the wrath of God against man . The only thing that could elimate that wrath was death..and even the death of a man was not enough..only God dying himself could satisfy that wrath..and you think a few years of you burning it off will make you worth to stand in HIS presence?

Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Rom 3:27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

I love the Potter and the Clay ..It speaks to the sovereignity of God...

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    Rom 9:22   [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

     Rom 9:23   And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

     Rom 9:24   Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

A wonderful Calvinist analogy:>)

[SoothingDave]

More tidbits from Father Luther:

7. God remits guilt to no one whom He does not, at the same time, humble in all things and bring into subjection to His vicar, the priest.

When was the last time you "subjected" yourself to a priest?

38. Nevertheless, the remission and participation [in the blessings of the Church] which are granted by the pope are in no way to be despised, for they are, as I have said, the declaration of divine remission.

Lots of folks aroudn here are "despising" these things.

15. This fear and horror is sufficient of itself alone (to say nothing of other things) to constitute the penalty of purgatory, since it is very near to the horror of despair.

16. Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ as do despair, almost-despair, and the assurance of safety.

Here is Luther's main problem -- he is afraid of Purgatory, because he has a false conception of it. Purgatory is not "almost-despair," it is "near-to-joy." Purgatory will have sadness, as our sinful bits are removed, as we are revealed for what we truly are. But there is great joy in knowing that the end result is eternal bliss.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Terry, it seems today's question you will not answer is this:

If the Potter puts His clay into a kiln, to burn off the waste and to perfect the pot, is that a "work" of the clay pot?

That's two. Care to answer?

SD

[RnMomof7]

Is that what the scripture says? Please cite the verse that says He burns off the waste to make it perfect for use..Having done ceramics I know you do not do that ..but show me the scripture

  
  Jer 18:1   The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
  
  Jer 18:2   Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
  
  Jer 18:3   Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
  
  Jer 18:4   And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make [it].
  
  Jer 18:5   Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
  
  Jer 18:6   O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay [is] in the potter's hand, so [are] ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
  
  Jer 18:7   [At what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy [it];
  
  Jer 18:8   If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
  
  Jer 18:9   And [at what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant [it];
  
  Jer 18:10   If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
  
  Jer 18:11   Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

[RobbyS]

Nonsense. One has to buy everything that Luther said, beginning with his own pecular interpretation of Scripture. The cotrine deals with the moral condition of mankind as he is. Calvin solved the problem by supposing that the Elect were the tiny minority of truly religious people that he saw. Some evangelicals following him and simply sought to gather in the Elect' Wesley, like most evangelicals simply fudged on the issue and his successors have ignored it all together by abandoning all theologizing on the matter. In what way do they differ from the Liberals, who deny the reality of evil altogether?

[drstevej]

Incoherent post.

[RobbyS]

Sorry, this was deleted. "The doctrine of purgatory deals with man as we see him, neither saintly nor diabolical but morally confused. What distinguishes the saved from the damned is the persistence of faith. Whatever the evident behavior of the individual, he remains in his heart of hearts faithful and prepared to pay the price of his actions. Some Protestants seems to place purgatory on earth; the Catholic at the moment of death, when he undergoes his judgement. But it is hard to tolerate the evil that even the "good"do, when the devil seems to be ascendent in the Church in both high and low places as well as in the world"

[drstevej]

*** Some Protestants seems to place purgatory on earth***

Which Protestants? Explain.

***But it is hard to tolerate the evil that even the "good"do, when the devil seems to be ascendent in the Church in both high and low places as well as in the world***

More incoherence.

[RnMomof7]

The doctrine of purgatory deals with man as we see him, neither saintly nor diabolical but morally confused

It is irrevelent how YOU or I see anyman. It is how God sees the man..and a man that is covered in the blood of Christ has a right standing before God..He sees the righteousness of Christ when he sees a saved man.

[RobbyS]

That is the theory you have adopted. The problem is that it demands that we believe we can see what God sees. We have a hard enough time searching our own hearts and discovering what is there. All we can do is to throw ourselves on the mercy of the Court, knowing that HE has been tempted as we were and was brought to the brink himself.

[RnMomof7]

You have adopted the theory that someone else will see more clearly than you and follow like what ever they say without question

Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Either Jesus spoke the truth or he lied...

[RobbyS]

The theory you have adopted is not your own but simply what was elucidated by the Reformers. Every revolutionary becomes the father of a new orthodoxy.

[RnMomof7]

Was Jesus a revolutionary?

[RobbyS]

No, but Luther was and you are reading Jesus's words through similar spectacles.

[RnMomof7]

You do not think Jesus was a revoluntary? You need to read the bible

[RobbyS]

How can the rightful rule of Israel be a revolutionary? The priests of the temple who refused to recognize him were revolutionaries.

[RnMomof7]

Why did they hang Him?

[RobbyS]

Why did the tenants kill the rightful heir?