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To: Joshua
A better way to put this would be that he pulled it out of context.

OK. Let's put it into context:

1 Corinthians 7

Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. I say this as a concession, not as a command. I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Where did Paul get this idea of "depriving each other for a time by mutual consent" if not from the Essene practice or something similar? Note also that Paul " wish[es] that all men were as I am." Certainly this casts consecrated virginity in a positive light, especially considering the fact that at the time of Mary's consecration she was a Jew.

Church tradition has always held that Joseph was much older than Mary at their marriage. Scripture seems to indicate that Joseph died before Jesus public ministry thus giving credibility to this tradition. Another ancient tradition is that Joseph had children by a previous marriage and would therefore be more willing to accept marriage to a consecrated virgin.

""In Egypt there was a community of women who, associated with the Essene spirituality, observed continence. These women, the Therapeutae, belonging to a sect described by Philo of Alexandria (De Vita Contemplativa, 21-90), were dedicated to contemplation and sought wisdom. "

Were these woman married? If not it has nothing to do with Mary

Why? How can you be certain that both groups of Jews, the Essenes and Therapeutae, which shared such similar practices would be unknown to each other, especially considering the fact that Mary's cousin's son, John the Baptist, was most likely an Essene?

The Essenes had a monastery in Qumran where some of the members lived lifelong celibacy. There were also married couples associated with them who abstained from sexual relations for short or long periods of time in order to devote themselves more fully to prayer. Paul makes a reference to that practice (which had Old Testament roots) in his first letter to the Corinthians (7:5). Joseph and Mary who were pious Jews may have been influenced by the Essene milieu. For that reason when the angel told Mary she would conceive and give birth to a son, she did not say, "Oh, Joseph and I are going to have a child." No, what she said was, "How is this possible since I have no relations with a man?" Or as another translation say, "since I am remaining a virgin."

Mary's Vow of Virginity, The Essene Background


90 posted on 10/29/2002 4:48:40 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: Aquinasfan
Having just read the "gospel of Mary" said to be written by Matthew one question comes to the forefront..It says(chapter 6 vs 6) an aged Joseph had a dove land on his rod so he knew he was to marry Mary..he then returned to his home in Bethelem to prepare a house for her...ummmmmmmmm very strange that he must have lived in a stable

It is this kind of non inspired stuff from which the church draws its Mary doctrine

106 posted on 10/29/2002 8:56:01 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Aquinasfan
". Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. I say this as a concession, not as a command. "

Again, Paul is stating that they should fast from sexual relations and concentrate on prayer. He in no way is talking about a lifetime of celibacy.

"Note also that Paul " wish[es] that all men were as I am." Certainly this casts consecrated virginity in a positive light, especially considering the fact that at the time of Mary's consecration she was a Jew."

You seem to imply that Paul was a virgin. It is my understanding that Paul was part of the Sanhedrin. It is also my understanding that to be a member one had to be married.

In either case Paul is not talking about a lifetime of virginity. He is stating that it is much easier to serve the Lord when you don't have the burdens of providing for your family.

Notice that in the verse you gave me as a reference Paul is also addressing widows.Usually widows are not virgins.

"Church tradition has always held that Joseph was much older than Mary at their marriage"

Assumption

"Scripture seems to indicate that Joseph died before Jesus public ministry thus giving credibility to this tradition"

Assumtion two used to verify assumption one.

"Another ancient tradition is that Joseph had children by a previous marriage and would therefore be more willing to accept marriage to a consecrated virgin. "

Assumption three of this paragraph. If Joseph had children from a previuos marriage, as your tradition states, why didn't they tend to Mary after the death of Jesus?

This is all i'm going to respond on this. This is an absurd stretch of Scripture.
I've seen you respond in other threads and made your point. You're way off the mark on this one. It isn't worth debating. Your starting from a false premise to make your case.

120 posted on 10/29/2002 1:48:40 PM PST by Joshua
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