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To: RochesterFan; xzins; RnMomof7
That verse seems to be more problematic for the Calvinists since, as Xzins has pointed out, it shows a unbeliever with 'integrity of heart' and also that God is communicating with a spiritually dead man (corpse like)and the man is speaking with God! A couple of observations. That Abimelech had 'integrity of the heart' in this one instance does not imply that he was totally guiltless before God.

No one would ever say that he was ' guiltless before the Lord'(Rom.3:23)

The text shows that that 'integrity of the heart' was the direct result of God's restraint.

I do not think so.

It was because of his integrity of his heart that the Lord did not allow him to sin

Ye, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me; therefore suffered I thee not to touch her

In other words, God kept Abimlech's integrity of heart by not allowing him to sin, but it was that integrity of heart was there at the first.

Radical depravity does not mean that man is as bad as he could be but that sin has affected all areas of God's life.

We accept that sin corrupts man.

God can appear to whomsoever he chooses. I would point oiut that Abram was a pagan when God first revealed Himself to him.

And that helps your case how?

The Calvinist view is that one has to be regenerated first before he can have any dealings with God (being a 'dead' spiritual corpse, with no ability to comprehend spiritual matters)

The point of the passage is that God controls/restrains the sinful desires and will of men when it suits His purpose. Who are you or am I to tell Him he can't!!!

Yes, God most certainly restrain sin.

The point that we were trying to make is that spiritual death is not as depicted by the TULIP Calvinists.

Abimelech spoke with God and pled his case with God, this from a man who was 'spiritually dead'.

He did not have to be regenerated first, in order to understand what God was saying.

743 posted on 10/03/2002 2:45:44 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: fortheDeclaration; RochesterFan; wai-ming
Abimelech spoke with God and pled his case with God, this from a man who was 'spiritually dead'. He did not have to be regenerated first, in order to understand what God was saying.

Amen, ftD.

This verse kills the idea of "ultimate" depravity and upholds "total" depravity. Man is not every bit as bad as he could be, but he is instead spiritually corrupted. This verse proves that the law of God has been written on the heart as Paul says in Romans 2. It proves that that law can be responded to by pagans and that God honors it ... even in our day.

We can only believe that if some pagan in outback aborigine land responds to the law of God in his heart, that God will make sure that a missionary is somehow taken to that area so that the message of Christ can be proclaimed to him/her.

752 posted on 10/03/2002 5:24:34 AM PDT by xzins
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