Pollster says he can't find Christianity transforming lives

Los Angeles Times | Published Sep 28, 2002 | William Lobdell

[theAmbassador]

This is so much codswallop as well. Calvinists go out of there way to be offensive and then congratulate themselves on being "oppressed" for God's sake. It speaks to the neurosis that requires constant re-assurance, and the deliverance from consequence that drives the believer.

Hey, ksen, I should have said that the majority of venom comes from non-Calvinist.

What I find amusing about this is that SoothingDave and xzins have been having a very humanistic discussion about whether or not someone must have Christ in order to be saved and then SD comes over here and tells me that I have to have some kind of mental or emotional disorder to be a Calvinist for actually believing the Bible over the humanistic ramblings of two non-Calvinists.

Hey dave, aren't you the one who boasted on this thread that he gets pleasure watching the suffering of others? It does seem as if there is still actually a mental disease with that description.

BTW, dave, speaking of constant re-assurance, I like what J.C. Ryle has to say about the nature of God's re-assuring grace:

God is continually holding out inducements to man to listen to Him, obey Him, and serve Him... He has... shown His perfect knowledge of human nature, by spreading over the Book a perfect wealth of promises, suitable to every kind of experience and every condition of life... Their name is legion. The subject is almost inexhaustible. There is hardly a step in man's life, from childhood to old age, hardly any position in which man can be placed, for which the Bible has not held out encouragement to every one who desires to do right in the sight of God. There are "shalls" and "wills" in God's treasury for every condition. About God's infinite mercy and compassion,--about His readiness to receive all who repent and believe,--about His willingness to forgive, pardon, and absolve the chief of sinner,--about His power to change hearts and alter our corrupt nature,--about the encouragements to pray, and hear the gospel, and draw near to the throne of grace,--about strength for duty, comfort in trouble, guidance in perplexity, help in sickness, consolation in death, support under bereavement, happiness beyond the grace, reward in glory,--about all these things there is an abundant supply of promises in the Word. No one can form an idea of its abundance unless he carefully searches the Scriptures, keeping the subject steadily in view. If any one doubts it, I can only say, "Come and see."

Let us tremble in awe and wonder before the One who came to serve, the One who is the same yesterday, today, and forever, who is the constant re-assurance for those who humble themselves by casting their anxiety upon Him.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

This has nothing to do with you buttinsky so go harrass someone else.

I'll post whenever and to whoever I want.

He claims to have read the OT "thoroughly" and he claims that I have not. Therefore let him answer a simple question and "well known" answer about one of the 12 tribes. If that's slander, then he has slandered me and we're even.

angelo has not slandered you as you have him, he only questions your knowledge of the OT.

Here let me quote what you said: JesseShurun: "Maybe the fake Jew knows." that is slander bud.

BigMack

[JesseShurun]

Then let him answer and dispel all doubt. I'll wait.

[rising tide]

wrigley says: Oh???

rt says: Of course, the Sermon on the Mount applies to Wrigly also.

[theAmbassador]

Ok, then I can guess I can thank God for the inconsistent Calvinists who act like they need to present the Gospel to the lost in order to give them a chance to hear. ;^)

Why is it inconsistent with Calvinism for us to preach the gospel?

We maintain that it is absolutely essential for a man to call upon the name of the Lord to be saved, unlike a great many Arminians who believe in all kinds of wierdness like "post-mortem evangelism". Just look at the conversation between xzins and SoothingDave. I'm afraid the stone you just cast was really a boomerang that just hit your own philosophy in the head.

[jude24]

I am saying that those who denigrate the evangelistic fervor of someone just because that someone is an Arminian or Calvinist are guilty of gross mischaracterizations.

I said nothing of the sort.

All I said was that, to my perspective (having held both opinions at one time or another), I do not believe that the actions of Arminian evangelists are consistant with their beliefs. I never faulted Arminians for ANYTHING other than an inconsistancy that I perceive.

[Itsfreewill]

restornu, I really think you need to reassess what you beleive, and what that belief is leading you to. Look what it has done here to you. You are unwilling to publically admit to what is now publically known. Look what happened to The Torch in NJ.

***

Wrigley you just needed drag in my faitih, this has nothing to do with my faith!

It has to do with your kind that stalking me in the name ofGod. No matter what forum I was on you were there to ostersize/blackball. I tried humor with you it did not work.

WRIGLEY get a grip!

one would think I rob a bank, or had a hit on someone life, or take bribes, steal an election.

WHAT I DID DO WAS ESCAPE FROM THOSE LIKE YOU WRIGLEY! AND YOUR TYRANT CONTROL!

[ksen]

Why is it inconsistent with Calvinism for us to preach the gospel?

I think that Irresistable Grace, if taken to a ridiculous extreme, would cause some to say, "If God's Grace is Irresistable, then why should I bother witnessing to my neighbor. Either they are Elect or they are not, nothing I do can change that."

I don't consider myself an Arminian or a Calvinist. I think the Truth lies somewhere in between.

[SoothingDave]

What I find amusing about this is that SoothingDave and xzins have been having a very humanistic discussion about whether or not someone must have Christ in order to be saved

Does "humanist" mean "not Calvinistic?" Cause our discussion was within our Christian experience, just not in the narrow bounds Calvinists restrict God to.

and then SD comes over here and tells me that I have to have some kind of mental or emotional disorder to be a Calvinist for actually believing the Bible over the humanistic ramblings of two non-Calvinists.

You believe your own self-flattering interpretation of the Bible. And that this is a great comfort to those who used to be terrified of doing something wrong is testified to by several of the Calvinists here. They were afraid that God would punish them if they did something wrong, so they embraced a philosophy whereby their salvation is arbitrary, yet assured, and that their actions are guranteed to be exactly what God desires. It is a very attractive theology and it is no wonder that many people cling to it.

Hey dave, aren't you the one who boasted on this thread that he gets pleasure watching the suffering of others? It does seem as if there is still actually a mental disease with that description.

Yes, thanks for bringing that up. The difference here is that I confessed it as a guilty pleasure, with a wink ;-) to indicate that I was speaking partly in jest. In any event, even if I am guilty I in no way considered my sinful acts to be "the Gospel." Which is entirely different from the mental coping mechanism that Calvinists construct, then cling to. They hold it to be "the Gospel."

SD

[ksen]

All I said was that, to my perspective (having held both opinions at one time or another), I do not believe that the actions of Arminian evangelists are consistant with their beliefs. I never faulted Arminians for ANYTHING other than an inconsistancy that I perceive.

My point is that your perceptions are colored by your Calvinistic prejudices, just as an Arminian's perception of a Calvinist's actions, compared to Calvinistic beliefs as perceived by the Arminian, are colored by his Arminianist prejudices.

I think I just confused myself...

[SoothingDave]

You are to be commended for trying. But to expect the "elect" to recognize their own bias is futile.

And I really think they just can't help it.

SD

[jude24]

I'm likely to be the least prejudiced Calvinist on this board, given that I was one for 5 years....

[jude24]

was an arminian for 5 years

[ksen]

Believe me, I wasn't using the word "prejudice" in the bad way.

I was just trying to make an observation, I certainly didn't mean to put words in your mouth.

[RnMomof7]

I think that Irresistable Grace, if taken to a ridiculous extreme, would cause some to say, "If God's Grace is Irresistable, then why should I bother witnessing to my neighbor. Either they are Elect or they are not, nothing I do can change that."

Now it seems to me you denied that was your position earlier..

God has determined the method of regeneration and has allowed men to be His hands and voice here

Listen to one Calvinist ( One knocked down by the irrestible grace of God and he KNEW it )speak here ;

1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

That is why we give the gospel, not because WE save anyone..we simply obey the command of Jesus to go and tell..He does the rest..

1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

read that verse real close

[RnMomof7]

You are to be commended for trying. But to expect the "elect" to recognize their own bias is futile.

Yea it is almost like telling a Catholic they are deceived :>)

[ksen]

Now it seems to me you denied that was your position earlier..

What am I denying?

[RnMomof7]

You denied that Calvinism was a block to evangelization



#780: Pollster says he can't find Christianity transforming lives
To: ksen

That point is just as extreme as those who point out that if someone were consistent in their Calvinism then why bother evangelizing at all.

The most successful evangilists in the history of the church are Calvinists...

Jesus said Go and we go....He has ordained to allow man to be a tool in His plan of salvation. No one will be without excuse on that day Ksen...

780 posted on 10/3/02 11:15 AM Eastern by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 760 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

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To: RnMomof7

I am not arguing that Mom.

I am saying that those who denigrate the evangelistic fervor of someone just because that someone is an Arminian or Calvinist are guilty of gross mischaracterizations.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Hey Mom, do ya tell your family their deceived and going to hell, or is your family members of the saved catholics?

BigMack

[drstevej]

IFW, thank you for the explanation. I am willing to put this in the past. But you must realize that I will continue to respond to the historical and doctrinal deceit that permeates Mormonism. I will not pretend it is just another form of Christianity.

When you promote or defend Mormonism on Free Republic you should expect a response from me and others. I will seek to avoid calling you any names or judging your motives. If you will avoid the same I think the discussion would be improved.

Sharon, I have nothing against your personally. I do care about your spiritual destiny.

Sincerely,
Steve