Pollster says he can't find Christianity transforming lives

Los Angeles Times | Published Sep 28, 2002 | William Lobdell

[Zack Nguyen]

Very interesting. What soured you on the Purpose-Driven church model? It has come up in our church as well. Were you purpose-driven or seeker-sensitive or both?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Be as loquacious as you like.

[Larry Lucido]

(going to Church on Sunday and then going to hell on Monday?)

Ok, so I don't have the most fun job in the world, but I think calling it "going to hell" is a little bit of an exaggeration. LOL!

[CCWoody]

Are you really that stupid? Guess so.

I tell you the truth that you have spoken a kind of blasphemy directly against the very Word and you call me stupid. Great! How deep does your pride go?

My post

How do you explain the fact that the gospel teaches that the hour is coming in which all who are in the graces will hear His voice and come forth; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and whose who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation?

And how do you explain that the gospel also teaches that when the Lord returns He will have all things that offend gathered up and cast into the furnace of fire?

Your Response

Circular arguments is all you put forth....

My next post

Good grief, are you actually calling the gospel itself a Circular argument

P.S. I'm actually somewhat amused that you don't even recognize that what I have posted is found in almost the identical words in the gospels. It should tell you something about how your eschatology has blinded you to the gospel.

Your response

No, just your spin on it, and its spun flat. I told you it would be hard for you didn't I?

Oh, well, I guess that you will just have to remain blind and call this little saint stupid for pointing out the truth. Let me know when you start to grow up and become a little more humble and teachable.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I think alot of the preachers have read the Purpose Driven Church, but have not told their people they are using it, or that they don't agree with all of it, but like some of it, and are working it into their churches.

BigMack

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Oh, well, I guess that you will just have to remain blind and call this little saint stupid for pointing out the truth. Let me know when you start to grow up and become a little more humble and teachable.

I got two words for you.

BigMack

[RnMomof7]

Next time a Pastor says the primary job of the church is to reach the lost ..ask him to read the following
  
  Eph 4:11   And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
  
  Eph 4:12   For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
  
  Eph 4:13   Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
  
  Eph 4:14   That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
  
  Eph 4:15   But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:
  
  Eph 4:16   From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


The church is NOT to be the tool of evangelization..it is to GIVE the tools of evangelization to its people. No more babes...no more milk.. They are to give meat so that the people can go out and give the gospel ...

[LiteKeeper]

bump for class tonight

[RnMomof7]

As a matter of fact God has been holding up one large STOP sign.

Every "local licensed" minister (those working toward ordination..and the Pastors helpmates) left the church..all of the mature Christians have left..What the seeker friendly wanna be has left is a church full of babes...not one mature Christian left.

So the classes were suspended.

Interesting is the fact one of the things the pastor promoted to get the "target group" (25-40 unchurched..some college or an undergrad degree ) was the music ministry..(which was awesome..it also "drew" large numbers of "kids" from the nearby University) has completly fallen apart...the music minister (one of the local licenses) was accused of molesting acouple of young girls. So he is gone . Now the worship time is a very poorly done music..

In short I believe that was an ego driven church..the pastor wanted a mega church for HIS glory IMHO...God is correcting that situation

[LiteKeeper]

I have not read the entire article, but I am going to at lunch. Let me just insert this anecdote. I teach a class at the Air Force Academy for Cadet Candidates that are trying to enter the Academy. We are averaging about 65 17-22 year olds right now. The class compares biblical Christian worldview with a Humanistic worldview. Many of the kids (and we have been doing this for 8 years) respond to our teaching by saying that we are teaching them things that they have never heard before: not from their pastors, not from their youth pastors, not from their Sunday School teachers. Shame on those teachers! I have been an ordained pastor for 23 years...and have rarely found teachers who are teaching with any depth. And that includes 10 years as an Army Chaplain. It saddens me greatly!

Check out Ken Ham and Answsers In Genesis as well as Summit Ministries for excellent resource materials.

More after lunch. You have hit my hot button. I care more about this than just about any other topic related to the Church today. I may end up waxing eloquent in a little while. I beg your indulgence in advance.

[kjam22]

I understand that the pollster is an "expert" .... but honestly, I'm not sure I believe all of his statistics. I realize that my personal experience isn't always represenative of the whole.... but I just don't buy everything in the article.

I go to a mega-baptist-church that many like to take issue with. But I challenge anyone to spend time in the church, then go to say a state fair, or a rock concert, or a gathering of Harley riders, or a professional football game, or lots of other "american" activities.... and then conclude there is not in general a difference in the people at these events.

Granted the church and church people are not perfect. But I know that when I get out of my normal routine, (comfort zone) I am often shocked at the difference in environment.

[RnMomof7]

The purpose of the church is to Glorify God and to be a hospital and school for the saints

The purpose driven church exists for one purpose..it is to grow

Now a field full of tares is full...but it does not make bread..

There are many believers that love mega churches..they love the various ministries and variety of people you find in them. But IMHO A good mega church grew by God's design not mans.

I was told all the material in the classes should stress the tareget group and how we will reach them (as the pastor said so that everyone is on the same page). Some of the teachers as well as I tried to tell them that the "target" offended people..that many would say I am not in the target group for the future do you want me?

I did not fit the target group my self..toooooo old:>)

It is spiritual manipulation IMHO..

[RnMomof7]

I hear Answers in Genesis on a local Christian station...good stuff

BTW This pushes all my buttons too

[xzins]

I am intrigued by and a bit of an advocate of social research. Mind you, there is a huge difference between well-done statistical research and the poorly done. Sometimes a poorly done study is obvious; at other times one must get into the details.

But the well-done ones are confirmed in life. Despite what I think of Barna, I tend to agree that this culture influences church people more than the other way around. Our divorce numbers are the same, our abuse numbers are the same, and our interests are clearly the same.

A well done study should be taken seriously. If Barna has done so, then serious-minded people should take serious-minded note.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

A well done study should be taken seriously. If Barna has done so, then serious-minded people should take serious-minded note.

I think Barna has done well in one sense, it is what is happening in the church today, he just doesn't know what to do about it, and is pushing the purpose driven church, 2 floor shows a day and a watered down message.

BigMack

[RnMomof7]

I do not question Barnas numbers at all..I think we see that all around us..

What I question is his defination of Christian..

He is counting those that go to a church and say they are born again..I say that is a faulty number base

The tares are in the same field as the wheat . But being in that field does not make them wheat...you can not change a goat into a sheep.

The bible is clear xzins...by their fruit you shall know them..If they talk like the world and walk like the world they are the world

[xzins]

A church member should be a believer.

An outreach program, and those who attend it, should be viewed as an extension ministry of the church. Those who run it should be church members. They should have no illusions that the attenders are Christians. If it's an outreach program, they should be delighted that they are getting non-Christians to attend, and that they are getting a chance to evangelize them.

But they shouldn't be handing communion out to the entire crowd. There should be a separate service for the Christians.

[xzins]

see #56

[CCWoody]

I got two words for you.

Yes, I know, "spin" & "circular".

Your problem is that you have way to much pride to admit that you got caught calling the gospel itself "spin" & "circular". You really need to just swallow it. You'll be much better off in the long run. And you might just figure out that you really don't know as much as you think you do. Then, you will be in a much better position to help people who really do need the gospel.

But, hey, look on the bright side, at least today you didn't call someone a Catholic for merely quoting Scripture.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

More after lunch. You have hit my hot button. I care more about this than just about any other topic related to the Church today. I may end up waxing eloquent in a little while. I beg your indulgence in advance.

Well good for you, bring it on. :)

The class compares biblical Christian worldview with a Humanistic worldview.

Is this something you have come up with? I would love to hear about it.

Many of the kids (and we have been doing this for 8 years) respond to our teaching by saying that we are teaching them things that they have never heard before: not from their pastors, not from their youth pastors, not from their Sunday School teachers. Shame on those teachers!

Its the same in our church, in the Sunday school class, we are put to sleep, they try to resave us each week, just milk, no meat, I have started asking hard questions in class, and have them in puzzelment :) like what the other so called faiths teach, and how to respond to them, the teacher tells us the Holy Spirit is guiding him, and I ask him, what makes your Holy Spirit smarter that theirs? I ask have you looked around in the world and seen what is going on in the churches, and what are you doing about it? What and how are you going to answer someone that has bought into a works based faith? Are ya just gonna tell them that Jesus loves ya? The others in the class are saying yeah, what about that? Oh the rabbit trails that we have gone down, but they are starting to see futher than the end of their noses. :)

BigMack

[RnMomof7]

If it's an outreach program, they should be delighted that they are getting non-Christians to attend, and that they are getting a chance to evangelize them.

That IS the problem xzins..Evangelization should be done in the workplace and the schools and the neighborhood..People should be well taught and know the gospel well from their personal bible study (a mark of a mature Christian) and from sound teaching from the pulpit...

Bringing in the unsaved for regular services by its nature dumbs down the sermon...it has to be aimed at giving a salvation message...that is MILK to the mature..you stunt their growth and maturity xzins.

It is NOT the job of the pastor to save the unsaved IN the church service..It is the job of every believer to give the gospel and let the spirit of God work

Can you give me a biblical example of anyone being saved IN a home church in the scripture?