- chen {khane} translated grace ~ unmerited favor or acceptance.
Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.
His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.
The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."
His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:
• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.
• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.
• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.
• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."
'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."
Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.
His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.
"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."
Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.
But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.
"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."
According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.
"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."
Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.
What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.
For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.
9/11 opportunity lost
The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.
"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.
This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.
Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.
The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.
"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."
With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.
The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."
Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.
Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.
"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?
That's what I said.
SD
How is this usage any different from the "all men mused in their hearts about John"?
Mom, please tell me you see the difference between God making promises about what will happen in this world, and God predestining people for eternal life in heaven or eternal damnation.
You say that it's clear that "works" do not save. They agree with that.
Thus, they conclude "believing is a work, therefore believing does not save."
Paul, however, contrasts "believing" and "working." Which side do you fall down on? Do you agree that "believing" is a "WORK?"
1. Do you believe that you have free will?
2. Did Joshua choose God?
3. What did God mean when he said "I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse"(Deuteronomy 30:19)?
4. Was Noah a righteous man?
Thanks for clarifying.
Paul, however, contrasts "believing" and "working." Which side do you fall down on? Do you agree that "believing" is a "WORK?"
Belief is necessary for salvation. As are the more traditional good works. I don't think "belief" is a work, though it is something done of the will.
SD
John 3:27 - "John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven."
God has to enable sinners to repent:
Acts 11:18 - "When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life."
God has to give people faith as a gift so that they can believe on Christ:
Ephesians 2:8 - "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" Remember Peter?
What did Jesus say to Him? Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
All faith is not saving faith xzins...the Mormons believe are they saved? Are the JW's?
- chen {khane} translated grace ~ unmerited favor or acceptance.
That was a neet little "jab"
Bad Jew, lets put him on the rack, what do ya say Mom, you used to be catholic didn't ya? Oh yeah, Bad Gentile, I guess I better get on there too, sense I'm denying the sovereignity of God with him.
Mom you have moved up from "pope Mom" to "Mom the god" but oh well, we will over look your attemps at smearing us, we know you can't help it, its hard not to smear when your going down the tubes in a ball of flames screaming all the way down untill you crash into the ground with that deer in the headlight look on your face, carry on.
BigMack
Not true xzins
We all must believe ...but the believing you make in your basment is a work...If all believeing saves then the demons are saved for they believe..
Just gave them to ya, sorry you don't see it.
BigMack
You're still preaching.
BigMack
angelo: So that we are on the same page, I should ask that you define how you are using the term "grace".
CCWoody: chen {khane} translated grace ~ unmerited favor or acceptance.
By that definition, I will stipulate that Noah had his own righteousness that was not from the grace of God. I do not believe that God's favor for Noah was unmerited.
Not buying that, Mom. You interpret it as it suits your theology.
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