Go ahead Mack, I know you're itching to! ;o)
Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.
His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.
The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."
His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:
• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.
• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.
• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.
• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."
'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."
Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.
His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.
"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."
Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.
But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.
"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."
According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.
"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."
Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.
What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.
For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.
9/11 opportunity lost
The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.
"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.
This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.
Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.
The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.
"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."
With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.
The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."
Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.
Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.
"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?
God knew I would write it and he didn't stop me :>) He also knew I had an appointment with an infection specialist and would have to leave in a minute...see how well God planned your question:>)
Who is Spurgeon, but a mear man, not God Mom, he too can be wrong. :)
BigMack
Go ahead Mack, I know you're itching to! ;o)
Amplified Version 1 Tim. 2:4 Who wishes all men to be saved and increasingly to perceive and recognize and discern and know precisely and correctly the divine Truth.
If God wishes all men saved and has the power to save them if He choose to do so, regardless of what man does (which I believe He could), but all men are NOT saved then there has to be a condition on salvation. That condition is man choosing to believe or not. It's not God's fault if someone is lost, He wants All men saved, but he gave all men the free will to choose.
Becky
Is all faith the same? Can I believe in Big Bird saving me? Will that do it?
Or is there a saving Faith in Christ?
Faith does not save anyone xzins ..Faith is a tool to bring us to Christ who does save...
John 3:27 - "John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven."
God has to give people faith as a gift so that they can believe on Christ:
Ephesians 2:8 - "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"
Regarding salvation, man has absolutely nothing to contribute: "knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked?" (Revelation 3:17).
Genesis 6:5 - "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
So God just wiped them all out, and that was the end of the story. Right?
What about that Noah fellow?
Please reread what you just wrote:
the Bible old and new testiment is clear man will never choose God
How then do you then account for the many men who do choose God? How do you account for Joshua choosing God?
For clarification, I said "Hebrew scriptures", referring to the "Old Testament", not the epistle to the Hebrews. Just one example:
These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with God. (Genesis 6:9)
Well, that's not in my bible, but perhaps you can explain how the passage in Revelation you reference can be literally true. Is Revelation generally interpreted literally? Is there a literal, physical "Book of Life" that someone literally wrote names into prior to the creation of the world? Wouldn't this imply the existence of some sort of physical creation prior to physical creation?
What does it mean to say "before the foundation of the world", anyway? What meaning does "before" have prior to the creation of time?
Because I studied it and came to the conclusion that some of the core doctrines are not true. Because I came to the realization that God had made a covenant with my people, that it was still in effect, and that I was a part of it.
How do you know one thief heard and not the other one?
They both may have. Please note that I did not specify whether the "good" thief was right or not in professing faith in Jesus. Only that he may have heard about Jesus previously. If the gospel accounts are accurate, most of Judea would have heard of him by that point.
Look at this people would rather be tortured than call Jesus Lord
Jewish people have been persecuted for much of the last 2000 years for refusing to call Jesus Lord. Many died with the words of the Sh'ma on their lips.
Hear, O Israel.is our God;
Should I ever find myself subject to persecution for my beliefs, I would pray for the strength to do the same.
I am
"You shall have no other gods before me. (Exodus 20:2-3)
You shall be careful to do therefore as
It is the difference between "redemption" and "salvation".
What was that you said earlier? Oh, right:
Like I said, just ask me. Sooner or later you won't even need me around! ;-)
;o)
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." (Genesis 1:26)
Bottom Line MUST be:
"So then 'FAITH' cometh by hearing, and hearing 'BY' The WORD of GOD."
(Romans 10:17)
Maranatha!
Hey, you promised me the GoldWing too! But I'll let Dave have it if he wants. ;o)
So then, Spurgeon and you are arguing that "all" doesn't mean "all?"
At lest that is an explanation. I couldn't see why you kept saying that, since if God desired all to be saved and they all aren't, then His power is in question.
SD
Why do you think you belong in hell?
My mom won't let me ride motorbikes. Though I imgaine I could cash it in. Assuming any other bikers miss out on the Rapture.
SD
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