Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.
His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.
The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."
His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:
• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.
• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.
• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.
• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."
'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."
Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.
His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.
"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."
Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.
But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.
"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."
According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.
"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."
Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.
What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.
For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.
9/11 opportunity lost
The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.
"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.
This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.
Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.
The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.
"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."
With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.
The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."
Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.
Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.
"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?
I hadn't thought of it that way, but that makes sense. Its like a scientist trying to assert that the wave nature of light is an illusion, and that only the particle nature of light is reality. When in fact it is "both/and" not "either/or".
They're all going to choose me? ;-)
And remain "the elect"? I'm flattered.
And you have not answered whether God was toying with the Israelites. Here I go.
Man has a free will..he may do what he wills at all times..the question at hand is why do some will to follow Christ and some not??
Because they are free. God does not compell anyone to follow... He invites, but leaves the decision to us.
Do you believe in original sin?
Of course. Just not in the Calvinist "total depravity" corruption of it. The nature is damaged, not destroyed. Bent, not broken. Sick, not dead.
Is mans will stronger than Gods? Who is God then?
It is not a test of wills. The same God whom you believe lowered himself to become man, allows His Creation to be truly free. God allows man to be free, so that man can freely love God.
SD
Yes, angelo. It's a mystery. I already said that. :-)
SD
Some did, and some didn't. You quote Psalm 14 as if we must understand the language used literally. Are you saying that there are no righteous men after David? Is it not possible that the psalmist was a) speaking poetically, b) using exaggeration to make a point, or c) speaking about a particular group or generation of people?
The LORD judges the peoples;
judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness
and according to the integrity that is in me. (Psalm 7:8)
How can the psalmist be righteous here, but not in Psalm 14?
He eternally knows everything, so he knew you from the beginning and he made his plan aware of the knowledge of you and of your choices.
He knew you would choose to be a believe. But he didn't choose for you. Knowing what you will choose is not the same as choosing for you.
Oh..Oh..Oh..let me...let me answer that. :)
It is wrong, and a very strange thing, indeed, to define a doctrine of the sovereignty of God which goes counter to what that God has said about Himself!
The Westminster Confession says, "By the decree of God ... some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and OTHERS FOREORDAINED TO EVERLASTING DEATH. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and UNCHANGEABLY DESIGNED; and their number is so certain and definite, THAT IT CANNOT BE EITHER INCREASED OR DIMINISHED. ... they who are elected ... are effectually called unto faith in Christ ... NEITHER ARE ANY OTHER REDEEMED by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, BUT THE ELECT ONLY."
This is erroneous human philosophy, and it makes out God to be a liar, but the Bible plainly says salvation is for whosoever will (Jn. 3:16; Re. 22:17). The Bible repeats this and repeats this and repeats this. The Bible says Christ "gave himself a ransom FOR ALL" (1 Ti. 2:6).
He purchased even wicked false teachers who are lost and on their way to Hell; when these men deny the biblical Jesus Christ, the Bible says they deny "the Lord that bought them" (2 Pe. 2:1). He bought them, though they are damned and on their way to Hell! Away with any man-made doctrine of limited atonement.
BigMack
LOL, you beat me to it!
But, to answer the second half of my question, it does not "save" anyone? Right?
SD
Romans 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
He indeed does justify those that believe ..but that continuse to beg the question...Can a dead man believe any thing? Why do some believe and some not? A man generated faith is a work. A man generated faith can not save anyone...
Let me cite what you said above:
God is totally sovereign Angelo
If God is totally sovereign, can he not then give man a truly free choice as to whether to choose good or evil?
At least they're not waiting on me (or whoever that final elect person is) to announce when The End Has Come.
Good, now come home. :)
BigMack
It's a mystery. I think we can say that He would rather that we all choose to come to Him. But since He set us free, He knows that a consequence of setting us free is that some will never return.
So in one sense, He tells us He desires that we all be saved.
But in the sense that he created the world that He did, free, He created a world where not all will be saved. So His desire as expressed in His action is that not all will be saved.
SD
I never said GOD was under a time frame, I said MAN was confined to a time frame. Big difference.
Now move along.
Becky
I guess I don't see what is so difficult to understand about this. If man has free will, then man can freely choose to follow God or not to follow God. Why would a man choose NOT to follow God? As many reasons as there are men, probably. It is not always easy to do the right thing. It conflicts with our other desires. It doesn't always give us immediate gratification.
Do you believe in original sin?
For those playing along at home, I should probably point out that I do not believe in original sin, nor do I believe in an eternal hell. I'm about as un-Calvinist as you could get! :o)
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